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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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If someone does not comply with a police officer's instructions there is no need to shoot him five times. I think the extremity of the police officer's actions is the issue. I suspect the outrage would be similar no matter what the skin colour was of either party.
You can shoot a single bullet into a shoulder or a limb to do exactly the same job, it was a clear case of too much force and the police officer in question should have been the subject of an official enquiry at the least; it would have at least saved what probably amounts to tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in wrecked cars, properties, stolen goods and probably dozens more lives traumatised.
In Britain when a police officer uses a firearm over-enthusiastically he gets raked over the coals and his career is often over.
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"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
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 12.09.2014, 02:55 PM |
   
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Nausicaa_Cat
Baron
Registration Date: 10.02.06
Location:
Posts: 3198 |
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Husky, have you seen the video of Tamir Rice, the twelve-year old boy who was shot?
They shot him before the police car had even come to a halt. Rather than approaching him from a distance, trying to negotiate with him (if they truly considered his weapon a threat), just like they would do and have done in numerous cases with mass-murderers who've shot out schools, they shot him without even allowing their vehicle to come to a stop. James Eagan Holmes shot up an entire cinema theater and was peacefully arrested - see anything wrong with this picture?They then left him lying in the snow, and this is a child please keep in mind, for over four minutes without any kind of medical attention.
Eric Garner they approached and put into an illegal stranghold and dragged to the ground, despite his repeated protestations that he couldn't breathe. This was on the basis that he'd been selling 'loose cigarettes'. There is video footage and witnesses which support the fact that the police acted illegally and with brutality and still there was no indictment.
As far as the death of Mike Brown goes, here is a link to an excellent point-by-point explanation of the many reasons that a full investigation should have taken place.
People are pissed off because by choosing not to indict, the nation is being told that not a shred of evidence existed worth deliberating over. It is telling the families of those killed that their loved ones deserved to die.
There is also plenty of evidence, sources for which I can find if you're interested, showing that a lot of the violence within the protests is set off by aggressive police behavior.
However, as FFF pointed out, there has been numerous massive-scale riots in recent years in reaction to sports outcomes or similar events and people didn't blink an eye then. The public have a right to be angry.
Post last edited by Nausicaa_Cat on 12.09.2014, 04:46 PM.
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| 12.09.2014, 04:42 PM |
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husky51
The Old Guy
Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12792 |
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Thank you, NC. I forgot the name of the 12-yo... Yes, I probably shouldn't have used that particular incident as an example. I do agree that the officer shot too quickly. But, remember this, he was responding to an unknown incident of a reported gun. He had no way of knowing if the gun was real of not. At the perseived threat, he reacted, wrongly in this case, as it turned out. But that is the life of a police officer, he or she sometimes must make life and death decisions in a split second.
As for the others, in the Ferguson incident, Brown was told to get out of the street and , to the best of my knowledge, he came after the officer. At some point, he was trying to get the gun from the officer and got shot in the hand. That is a little too personal contact with someone the size of Brown.
Maybe I've been too acclimated to the term "I can't breathe" by someone resisting arrest. I have personally heard it myself when trying to handcuff a man fighting in a bar. His breathing was not restricted, just merely trying to get me to reduce my hold on him. Watching "Cops", you see this as well. I will give you that about the illegal use of the 'choke-hold', but did you see the size of the man and how many officers were trying to bring him to the ground, Which that maneuver of putting on the ground is a common control tactic for all officers if a suspect resists in any way. Another woman I put the handcuffs on tried the same thing, as well as threatening me with legal action for touching her breasts and 'her father is an important man'.
I do not like seeing all the violence that I see all the time in the news, but we have to ask, WHY? Why are the police reacting this way? Could it be because some people in general will do anything, and I mean anything, to keep from being arrested up to and including killing the officer. With this kind of disregard for law enforcement, is it any wonder that police are acting quicker with defense tactics? These officers put their lives on the line each and every day they go out into the streets. True, some instances of abuse of authority do occur and should be dealt with by their superiors or the courts. And, if as jury decides that there is insufficient evidence of any wrongdoing, then deal with in the government, not in the streets.
As far as shooting 'in the shoulder or a limb', I have to ask if you have ever tried to hit a target like that, Saddles. It is a movie thing, not RL. I shot master in police pistol competition for 4 yrs, shooting at ranges from 21 feet to 150 feet and it ain't easy even with a still target. And I am not excited, adrenalin pumping, trying to make snap judgments about what should I do next... Police officers are taught to shoot at the largest target, the body mass or torso because, realistically, trying to hit anything else in that kind of situation is ridiculous under the circumstances. And they are taught to continue firing until the threat is stopped. When I was competing, I had time to aim and was only trying to beat the clock. I took third place in a LAPD match. A handgun is hard to control, a fraction of an inch in deflection of the barrel can make the difference between a hit or a complete miss. In one incident that comes to mind, two officers were shooting at a man that started shooting at them. They fired 17 shots with none of them hitting the target. None! Shooting a suspect in the shoulder? Except by luck, it ain't gonna happen.
These are my personal feelings and I don't expect anyone else to agree with them. I have stated them and will not argue about them. Just remember this, what we are looking at are a very small number of shootings, with hundreds more occurring all the time that end without all this fanfare and rioting. The media doesn't help, either.
'nuff said. I agree with the duly appointed court system.
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Post last edited by husky51 on 12.09.2014, 06:02 PM.
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| 12.09.2014, 05:52 PM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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quote:
As for the others, in the Ferguson incident, Brown was told to get out of the street and , to the best of my knowledge, he came after the officer. At some point, he was trying to get the gun from the officer and got shot in the hand. That is a little too personal contact with someone the size of Brown.
Read the link NC provided. It has sources. Wilson is the same height as Brown. The police officer's testimony is unreliable and contradicted by 6 eyewitnesses, 4 of whom have never met. There were no powder burns on Brown's body (autopsy report) which there would be if he'd grabbed Wilson's gun. The wounds in Brown's arms and hands are consistent with him having his arms raised in surrender when he was shot.
Yes, policemen have to make snap decisions in life and death situations but the problem is that when they make the wrong ones they are not brought to account as they should be. You cannot judge whether a person holding a 'gun' is a threat or not from inside a still-moving vehicle. Police forces need to look inside themselves and always strive to correct bad perceptions by the public. They are our servants, not our oppressors - you'd expect the American police to have this ideology uppermost in their behaviour. Any police force is only effective if it has the respect and trust of the citizens it is there to protect. When police act too aggressively, disregard their own protocols, destroy evidence, lie and are not brought before a court to defend their actions you get predictable results. We have the same issues in Britain but here our police try hard to correct their mistakes.
Take it from an outsider looking in, Husky, I have many British friends who think as I do - that the US police are too aggressive, not accountable enough and possibly protected by politicians. As NC said, its no wonder people get angry over it.
British police are trained to shoot to incapacitate. I understand American police are as well. I agree its not easy to hit a moving target who may be a threat to you but threat assessment is a part of that training and these people should receive the finest training money can buy and if they continue putting bullets into a person who has his arms raised and is begging them 'please stop shooting' then something is going very, very seriously wrong.
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"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
Post last edited by Saddletank on 12.09.2014, 06:17 PM.
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| 12.09.2014, 06:14 PM |
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husky51
The Old Guy
Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12792 |
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| 12.09.2014, 06:50 PM |
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Nausicaa_Cat
Baron
Registration Date: 10.02.06
Location:
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quote:
Originally posted by husky51
I respect your views, Saddles, as well as NC's, but what 'autopsy report' are you talking about? I haven't seen a report, but have read that the three 'reports' by the Feds, the County and the private one done by the family all agree in the fact that there was a close range wound in one of Brown's hands. And there were many more than 6 witnesses and the Grand Jury used only those that could be corroborated by physical evidence, not just he said/she said sort of testimony.
Unfortunately, people see what they want to see. As you know, 20 people can witness the same incident happening and there can be 15 different accounts of what happened and each witness will swear to the accuracy of their statement. And that doesn't allow for people putting forward their own agendas...
I don't actually disagree with you Husky that there is a lot of contradicting evidence where the Mike Brown case is concerned - but do you know what usually happens when that is the case? There is an indictment.
There are certain facts which simply need to be questioned: why was it necessary to shoot Mike Brown six times? The last two being in the head? Why did the forensic examiner fail to take photos of Mike Brown's body, but Darren Wilson's (practically non-existent) injuries were photographed? Ferguson police refused to take eye-witness statements, Wilson's gun wasn't tested for fingerprints, Wilson was allowed to break protocol and wash off the blood splatter on him. Seriously there is a myriad of aspects to this case where there was a dire failure in public duty and someone needs to be held accountable for that.
If it isn't clear what happened, than justice would be to hold a detailed investigation and try to get to the bottom of it. Do you have any idea how statistically unusual it is for a jury to choose not to indict? It's almost nonsensical.
I don't really want to clog up the HL thread any further so I'm going to choose not to comment on this topic anymore. I know you've had a lot of ties to the police force throughout your life Husky, and I respect that as a result you probably naturally side with them, but hundreds of thousands of people across the globe aren't angry over nothing.
LL: Gross, drizzly weather.
HL: Warm and tucked up in bed at home with Netflix and cookies 
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| 12.10.2014, 11:58 AM |
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saviour2012
Baron
Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
Posts: 1749 |
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wow a major debate, which i did not start.
basically because its no use.[talking about these subjects makes you ill]
Husky there is a problem in Police and in general people toward anyone who is not a white.
As i have not really searched for the materials in these incidents i wont comment on these.
But i dont think i will feel safe in USA.
see American History X. for understanding the fact.
And husky's point also counts that people (although he did not mention blacks, i am) can be stupid sometimes, there are many blacks from different countries in my country and as they do that stupidity almost all the time. And IT IS ENTIRELY BECAUSE OF ILLITERACY, most of them(the people i have met) didn't/don't study at all. Many of them started illegal business here.
However i think most of the person can judge the potential threat of a person, by his body language, looks, posture etc. I think what everybody(including me) wants to say is the reaction was not necessary.
Is the protest necessary? Yeah, because blacks(add asians, muslims and other minorities for other countries) are almost always harassed by police in countries where there is a popular ideology among people(that may be almost anything). and that includes me for particular no reason i dont like black people much, i hate myself for that , but always until we talk this feeling comes to me.
----------------------------------------------
So society without equality is not something good.
In the end may there will be made some laws or new regulations to negotiate with the protester but those cant end the issue.
Practically it is the most essential fundamental task of govt to enforce equality, which is infact the basis of modern society. But none of the govt. in the world has been able to do that.
That is very, very sad. That is what we need to understand.
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Watch everything but only take the good things from it
Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.
Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.
If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.
its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi
Post last edited by saviour2012 on 12.10.2014, 01:27 PM.
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| 12.10.2014, 01:22 PM |
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husky51
The Old Guy
Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12792 |
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@NC
I am not entirely without sympathy towards your views, there are questions that were not answered, but the jury made their decision and all across the country people reacted with fires and looting. That is not how to make changes. Some people got their holiday shopping done early...
I agree, I also will not tie up the HL thread.
I read your reply, saviour, WOW, you didn't start this one??? hmmm. Are you feeling well,,,? having a little fun with you, saviour,
Take care, and remember, I respect all opinions, even if I don't always agree entirely with them.
HL:
A man made contact with me whose father was on the same ship I was in the Navy although 10 yrs earlier. Was able to answer a lot of his questions and send him some pictures of the ship.
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Post last edited by husky51 on 12.10.2014, 01:47 PM.
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| 12.10.2014, 01:45 PM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077 |
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Ban guns. Ban the dustribution of guns. Heck, ban the production of guns. No guns = no gun deaths. Seriously, how hard is it to understand? You won't need a "good guy with a gun" if the bad guys don't have guns either.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 12.11.2014, 01:49 AM |
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Kazegami
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 08.19.07
Location: a world of pure imagination
Posts: 7025 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
Ban guns. Ban the dustribution of guns. Heck, ban the production of guns. No guns = no gun deaths. Seriously, how hard is it to understand? You won't need a "good guy with a gun" if the bad guys don't have guns either.
^ This.
LL: It is 6:48, I have not slept tonight. The fire alarm has been going off every thirty seconds for the last hour and a half. I intended to get an hour or so's sleep earlier, but... that isn't happening. I swear revenge on the ones who did this, and their children, and their children's children.
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| 12.11.2014, 02:52 AM |
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foreignfilmfreak
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 10.02.06
Location: Japan
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When I was living in residence, I was terrified of the fire alarm going off, especially when I showered. lol We'd have drills more than a few times a semester out of nowhere, and then those times something actually happened. Anyhow, I now constantly think even not living on campus anymore that the fire alarm is going to go off and still have anxiety over it. lol
HL: Last exam today and New York tomorrow!
That being said, this will probably be my last post for about a month. I'll be heading home after I get back and spending time with my fam jam and boyfriend.
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| 12.11.2014, 09:27 AM |
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husky51
The Old Guy
Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12792 |
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| 12.11.2014, 01:04 PM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077 |
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Aww, have a good trip and have fun. I was thinkin of organizing a ghibli weekly marathon but hey.
See you next month... or on Facebook next two days probably
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 12.12.2014, 06:12 AM |
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Kazegami
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 08.19.07
Location: a world of pure imagination
Posts: 7025 |
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HL: Finished my essay! Ahh, that's work finished for semester~ Now I can relax and start getting ready for going home on Sunday. Got a party with all my friends to look forward to tomorrow night as well.
LL: Found out one of my little nieces is very ill in hospital. My poor sister must be so worried..
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| 12.12.2014, 12:12 PM |
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arren18
Administrator
Registration Date: 08.15.06
Location: Edinburgh
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Highlight: I also finished an essay today! I still have one exam on Tuesday though.
I've been extremely inactive lately due to a combination of being busy and lazy. Sorry about that guys! Normal coverage will resume shortly.
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| 12.12.2014, 01:32 PM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077 |
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HL: So I'm gonna be attached to a technician on the field starting Monday. Bloody nervous, but hey, I get to do some proper work now.
__________________
I am me.
I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.
Roarkiller.net
Isakaya High RPG Site
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 12.12.2014, 11:35 PM |
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Kazegami
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 08.19.07
Location: a world of pure imagination
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HL: Kamijo has announced a world tour for next year!! He's coming to London in March, and nothing will be keeping me away. <3
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| 12.13.2014, 10:52 AM |
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Kazegami
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 08.19.07
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| 12.14.2014, 09:28 PM |
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husky51
The Old Guy
Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12792 |
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| 12.14.2014, 09:59 PM |
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husky51
The Old Guy
Registration Date: 03.17.08
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| 12.15.2014, 12:37 AM |
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