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TubbieToeter
Kodama
Registration Date: 03.11.08
Location: Germany
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As for the divorce issue ... I am glad I didn't have to marry my first boyfriend. We would both not be happy anymore. And even if we had to be married like 100 years ago, and stay married, I'm sure we both would have our guests when the other one was not around ... would that be better than ending the relationship?
Only cause people didn't divorce as often, doesn't mean they were happier!
That point in time, when the majority of people start thinking like #1sanfan, we will go back to anarchy.
Why care for things that don't affect myself?
Cause EVERYTHING affects EVERYONE!
Why fight for rights that are taken from other people by other people?
Cause next time it's your ass for sale, and maybe it would be nice to be helped by people who have pity.
Would you pass a scene and not help, not even call the police, just walk by, where a woman is yelling for help cause she is raped by 2 guys in the pedestrian zone at night? People do, cause it didn't affect them. They didn't want trouble, so they just pretended it wasn't their problem. How would you feel if this would happen to your kid? Your wife or girlfriend? Would you tell them "don't be traumatized, thats how the world is so get over it"? There is countries where women can be prosecuted for having been raped! Well, so what, that cannot be changed right? What does it affect you? It has been only 10 years that new laws have come in place in Germany that raping your wife is a crime. Imagine that. Abusing your wife was actually legal.
But it has changed ... because people cared! Could have changed earlier if more people cared ... not only the women that were victims or knew victims, but also people totally unaffected by this as a person ... just to make the world a little better for ther kids and grandkids to live in ...
I admit, this comparision is a little strong, but its a good example I think.
Of course one cannot take the worries of the whole world on oneself. But I think every human being is morally obliged to do the best he can within his abilities to make the world a little bit better. It starts with being nice to the pizza delivery guy or not to slam the door in the face of the person that is behind you.
I just want to say, everyone makes a difference. Everyone is part of society and forms the society. And everyone can change the world ... there have been examples like Ghandi and Hitler ... but it also changes the world to have common sense.
I have a quite pessimistic view on mankind, but I still try to be an exception ...
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Post last edited by TubbieToeter on 03.17.2008, 03:44 AM.
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 03.17.2008, 03:37 AM |
   
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Miyrru
Graphic Designer
Registration Date: 08.16.06
Location: Freezing cold Northern Ontario
Posts: 7178 |
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@ Mushka. Fine you dragooned me into it. I will play devil's advocate to the best of my ability. I love arguments, just that sometimes I end up like a politician: question dodging and underinformed. But we'll see where we go here.
1.) I see your point. If we flipped it, it would be weird. But lets not say that every relationship pre-1960s feminist movements were complete hell. Of course men did abuse their wives. It happened, its fact. But by no means was it a feature of every marriage. For a small bracket, maybe 1960s-1980s things happened, but lots of things happened. Those were ripe years of change. It was an age where a good ol'fashioned march could get something done. Media nowadays is too big and this tactic is exhausted.
2.) That is a great way of looking at it, it works great on paper . Which is the only flaw. The translation from paper to reality is far harder than we even imagine. My Edmonton Oilers on paper won the 2006 Stanley Cup. In reality, Marc Andre Bergerion took out our MVP goalie and we lost. Same principle. There are always people higher up with their own agendas that like things how they are. They can take advantage of us. North America is a microscopic part of the world. Things happen here because we are a little freer, a little more accepting a little looser. If you went to the middle east and campaigned about feminine equality. You would be shot where you stood. Different societies can't take this universal model that we in the 'developed' world want to apply. Its too much work, with too many outside factors that can derail the whole thing back to square one.
3.) Nice example, I'm not going for an ad hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy and blaming feminine independence for the breaking of families, but the increase in womens attitudes of independence makes them more likely to take off in a marriage than stay in one. Look at some StatsCan divorce rates. They are pretty high. Marriage rates are also going down. Where does that leave us? Families that have 2 parents and 2 kids are becoming extinct. Where do we go from there? Even our dating patterns have changed. What 'm getting at is that the institutions of our past, that used to work, are becoming out dated. What will be the basis of our society if we let family die off completely? (Global warming is BS btw imo)
4.) Its run its course because it is at a point that things are close enough. If feminists start street marches to get equality, the employers already are conceding plenty. They have to give equal opportunity, pay raises, benefits. Its easy to want money that isnt yours. Do you think that these business men will just part will their cash that easily? Its as good as it is going to get. Take your money and run.
I think that our inequality has been pretty stable. I havent heard of any poor marches or protests. The people with the loudest voices are happy. They can drown out any murmur from below.
5.) My effort to lay out a welcome mat doesnt do anything. Wither I am here voicing my support for a matter, it doesnt do anything than raise my voice above everyone here. Society is becoming ever more private and individualistic. Its not like I don't care about others, but I look out for myself first. Right now, society doesnt hurt me or i throwing me under the bus. When I have a reason to make noise, I'll make it.
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The truth had to be seen. Anything else was a story, entertaining but more embroidered fib then crude, shapeless fact. ~Dave Eggers
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| 03.17.2008, 09:56 AM |
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husky51
The Old Guy
Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12818 |
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Besides the female leads in the examples given by 'Mushka',
I forget her name, but don't forget the free-spirited artist in Kiki...
I don't think Miyazaki put his female leads in any kind of 'gender inferior' role, per se. They struggled, many with the help of friends both male and female, but they in them selves were all strong in the end.
(If you went to the middle east and campaigned about feminine equality. You would be shot where you stood. )
The above quote by #1SANFAN is for the most part true, however, my daughter married a Saudi and lives in Jeddah. When she fell and broke her leg at home one day, she told me that at the hospital she was questioned as too whether this was a case of spousal abuse or not. This is a surprise considering the way most Arab countries are portrayed in their treatment of women. While things over there need a lot more improvement, some women that I know have told me that in the last 10 years, things have changed somewhat for the better for women.
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Post last edited by husky51 on 03.23.2008, 01:58 AM.
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| 03.23.2008, 01:47 AM |
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Mush
Baron
Registration Date: 07.30.07
Location: South of Canada
Posts: 1810 |
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Husky - Oops! I forgot her! But good example 
quote:
Originally posted by #1sanfan
Those were ripe years of change. It was an age where a good ol'fashioned march could get something done. Media nowadays is too big and this tactic is exhausted.
I agree in a sense. However, I think that the modern era has only accelerated change (though it looks different than change did in the past). Much of today's change has to do with spreading the advances of the '60s in the West to the rest of the world, and the internet is making that easier than ever. But don't think that old fashion change is dead yet! Gays were only allowed to marry a few years ago, and not even in the States yet.
BTW, the point I was trying to get across earlier about how change happens was just recently said a lot better by Barack Obama in his speech on racism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrp-v2tHaDo
He says at one point something like "America will never be perfect, but it can always be perfected". (I don't know if that's verbatim). I think that's really what I was trying to say before.
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Families that have 2 parents and 2 kids are becoming extinct. Where do we go from there? Even our dating patterns have changed. What 'm getting at is that the institutions of our past, that used to work, are becoming out dated. What will be the basis of our society if we let family die off completely?
Whatever works for them, right? I thought you were the libertarian one. 
(Did those institutions work as well as we think they did? If so, why are people moving away from them?)
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the employers already are conceding plenty. They have to give equal opportunity, pay raises, benefits. Its easy to want money that isnt yours. Do you think that these business men will just part will their cash that easily? Its as good as it is going to get. Take your money and run.
Huh? The marches are about getting women to stop selling themselves short, not to stop businessmen from paying people more than they deserve. If the businessman wants the women to keep working for him, he should pay them as much as they're worth - so why is it that women earn less than men? Are we doing inferior work in some way?
Perhaps, but I doubt it. I don't see attempts to push for equal pay as being attempts to get money that isn't ours. It's an attempt to bring the market rate of female employment up to where it belongs - on par with the male equivalent.
quote:
When I have a reason to make noise, I'll make it.
You don't think you have a reason yet?
I think you severely underestimate the ability of the individual to influence the many. Miyazaki is a good example of this
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| 03.23.2008, 03:53 AM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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About the traditional family unit:
quote:
Originally posted by Mushka
why are people moving away from them?
I'd take the first word off that question and ask it back to you both.
OT I know but I'm puzzled where this idea of the two parent family with kids becoming no longer the norm comes from.
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Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
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| 03.23.2008, 07:53 AM |
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Mush
Baron
Registration Date: 07.30.07
Location: South of Canada
Posts: 1810 |
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Good point. I think that they're still the vast, vast majority of families.
It's just that in recent years, exposure to single-parent families in popular culture has become much more common (although orphans much less so; perhaps they balance out?)
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| 03.23.2008, 11:00 PM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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Its all about what the media wants to tell us isn't it? Single parent families = angst and broken lives (generally) = bad news worth reporting. Conversely better awareness of orphans with (finally!) properly focused and correctly administered fostering care programmes = happy endings = not newsworthy.
I often sit with my cynical hat on and wonder how nicer our existences could be if the media did not report bad news but only reported good. I secretly suspect our lives would be a good deal better, our whole outlook would be more positive.
As an example the recent trend of ambulance-chasing lawyers and all the anti-social and litigious behaviour that has generated in - oh - the last 10 years. Without the media coverage wouldn't that all have had less of an impact? And wouldn't it be so much better if we didn't have all these stupid lawsuits because someone scalded themselves by dropping their cup of McDonald's coffee?
I think sexism gets promulgated almost as much by the media these days as by tradition. The papers will continue to report sexism lawsuits in a certain tone, women are still sometimes painted as somehow ungrateful if they bring such cases.
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Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
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| 03.24.2008, 07:34 AM |
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Theowne
Baron
Registration Date: 02.11.07
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1290 |
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quote:
I often sit with my cynical hat on and wonder how nicer our existences could be if the media did not report bad news but only reported good.
Sometimes it's the bad news that leads to the good news. As an example, when the big Tsunami struck a few years ago, there were awful images and videos on the screen of people suffering. Bad news. But exposure to their pain led to some of the highest amount of donations from civilians for relief - good news. The media has an important role to play. Sometimes they do it better then at other times.
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| 03.24.2008, 09:38 AM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank And wouldn't it be so much better if we didn't have all these stupid lawsuits because someone scalded themselves by dropping their cup of McDonald's coffee?
Only in America, as they say.
Well I tend to be slightly biased against the press, simply because i now know they even edit letters to the forum section. Generally though, the press will just report anything and everything, and word it in such a way that, while it remains the truth, is biased towards a certain opinion.
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| 03.24.2008, 09:59 AM |
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Miyrru
Graphic Designer
Registration Date: 08.16.06
Location: Freezing cold Northern Ontario
Posts: 7178 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Theowne
quote:
I often sit with my cynical hat on and wonder how nicer our existences could be if the media did not report bad news but only reported good.
Sometimes it's the bad news that leads to the good news. As an example, when the big Tsunami struck a few years ago, there were awful images and videos on the screen of people suffering. Bad news. But exposure to their pain led to some of the highest amount of donations from civilians for relief - good news. The media has an important role to play. Sometimes they do it better then at other times.
But bad news comes out of that good news. There was an increase in people getting scammed by people claiming to be collecting donations, and that the money is being woefully miss-managed. New Orleans, even though it isnt the tsunami, but its a same type disaster is still blasted to hell to most parts. People are still without housing and clean water.
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The truth had to be seen. Anything else was a story, entertaining but more embroidered fib then crude, shapeless fact. ~Dave Eggers
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| 03.24.2008, 11:17 AM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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Hm, well off topic now. Still, on we go...
I wasn't thinking of the reportage of natural disasters as bad news, these events like wars and political events and major crimes and so on need to be reported so the public is kept informed.
I was thinking more along the lines of the nasty trivial spiteful junk that fills the second two or three pages of our papers and which concerns warring neighbours, litigious coffee spillers (its happening in the UK now too, Roar) and the dull doings of rock stars and TV B-list celebrities... that sort of junk has no place in the information machine.
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Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
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| 03.24.2008, 12:05 PM |
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Miyrru
Graphic Designer
Registration Date: 08.16.06
Location: Freezing cold Northern Ontario
Posts: 7178 |
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I might as well continue with the argument...
quote:
advances of the '60s in the West to the rest of the world, and the internet is making that easier than ever. But don't think that old fashion change is dead yet! Gays were only allowed to marry a few years ago, and not even in the States yet.
Thats a hard thing to do. It is pretty stuck up for the west to believe that we have everything going great here and that we have to spread it around to the rest of the world. I think that if anything, the rest of the world should be influencing the west. Look, is gay marriage that big of an issue? Did you really care about before? People only started to really form opinions once it started being bandied about in politics. It isn't that big a deal to me. The traditional family is starting to fade, might as well let people who want to get married go for it. Its a low impact change. It doesn't influence the society that much, its not like we are going to see vast increases in the gay population. It would have happened eventually over here as it had been done in the rest of the world in places like Denmark before us. Its not like they were blazing a trail.
And don't get me started on Barack Hussien Obama. He is the lasst guy I would want to be a president. I like how he had to sever ties with his 'spiritual leader' cause he finally woke up one day and realized his pastor is a racist. Don't get me going on Louis Farrakhan. Barrack is a great speaker with a flawed view of how to run a country and has no real political experience. He might make it through one term as a lame duck prez while the Republicans regroup. Give teh guy a merit badge for trying, and he can speak, and hes probably right, but still. America has a whole heap of problems that will take a very long time to sort out.
quote:
Whatever works for them, right? I thought you were the libertarian one.
(Did those institutions work as well as we think they did? If so, why are people moving away from them?)
The family has had an air of solidarity, I'm sure they did work well before, have you had the experience growing up in a broken family? I'll tell you it isnt a cakewalk. People can do what they want, i really don't care. I'm along for the ride of a downward sloping society. Let the pieces fall where they may.
quote:
Huh? The marches are about getting women to stop selling themselves short, not to stop businessmen from paying people more than they deserve. If the businessman wants the women to keep working for him, he should pay them as much as they're worth - so why is it that women earn less than men? Are we doing inferior work in some way?
You are getting at an old socialist argument that says that inequality steams from people not getting paid what they are worth. If females need to get paid what they are worth, so do men, everyone is underpaid so firms can max out their profits. The firms do what they need to do to survive. We are merely parts moving them forward. Why are women getting paid less than men? Because they are still not considered totally equal and are playing catch up. Maybe time will slowly adjust it to equality, but business owners aren't going to be running to the bank to shell out more cash right away. People who make the money up top are the ones dolling it out to the workers. Unless they had to, and I mean had to pay women equal amounts, they wont. There is no benefit from them doing so from a business standing. If I was running a business, i'd higher all women and pay them less than the men. That would be a smart business decision. I think the equal opportunity laws make that hard though.
quote:
You don't think you have a reason yet?
I think you severely underestimate the ability of the individual to influence the many. Miyazaki is a good example of this
No, actually I have no reason to say anything. I live in a middle class standard of living. I go to school and get a student discount bus pass. I have more cash than most 18 year olds. I have a house paid for and I get it in 3 years. I'm as happy as a clam. What should I complain about?
Miyazaki is a terrible example. The guy has a team of animators at his beck and call and a freaking company. I have more money than normal 18 year olds and motivational problems, trust me. Their is a Everest x50 gap between him and me.
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The truth had to be seen. Anything else was a story, entertaining but more embroidered fib then crude, shapeless fact. ~Dave Eggers
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| 03.24.2008, 05:13 PM |
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Theowne
Baron
Registration Date: 02.11.07
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1290 |
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quote:
And don't get me started on Barack Hussien Obama.
Do you usually include middle names when casually naming people or are you following the trend set by the far-right nutcases on talk radio?  And you seem to be spouting the same nonsense they say. Actually, I don't even see anything wrong with what his pastor said. People don't seem to realize that his pastor is from a different generation. A generation where racism and discrimination were far more common and heavy. Do you expect him to not harbor resentment somewhere because of it? As for Farrakhan , I'm not sure of the point of bringing him up. Obama can't control who supports him.
Post last edited by Theowne on 03.24.2008, 05:24 PM.
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| 03.24.2008, 05:23 PM |
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Maho_Fushida
Baron
Registration Date: 09.11.07
Location: Walking home.
Posts: 1498 |
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Just to pick up one point that jumped out at me.
quote:
Originally posted by #1sanfan You are getting at an old socialist argument that says that inequality steams from people not getting paid what they are worth. If females need to get paid what they are worth, so do men, everyone is underpaid so firms can max out their profits.
I don't think Mushka was using a socialist argument at all, she was using an anti-sexism argument.
In job X man A gets paid $50,000, in the same job X woman B gets paid $40,000. They both work for money grabbing capitalist company Z.
Both are capable professionals. Why is B paid less when there is no other distinguishing difference between them other than gender?
Change the amounts and insert my name instead of B and a man on the same team as me instead of A and you have the exact situation I am in. We were both employed at the same time, he does the same work as I do. I found out late last year he earns significantly more than I do.
Put yourself in my situation and imagine how that feels.
quote:
If I was running a business, I'd higher all women and pay them less than the men. That would be a smart business decision.
It would. It would also be illegal. You'd be happy being a criminal?
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I think the equal opportunity laws make that hard though.
They don't make it hard enough.
I also think you missed the point about Miyazaki. He is just one man, he had a vision and a talent and went out to change what he could change by using that talent and applying that vision. The artists that work for him do so because they share his vision. He wasn't given Studio Ghibli at birth, he went out and built it with his own brain and sweat.
I don't think your personal circumstances are relevant at all, we each are capable of doing exactly what we are capable of doing, we go out there and do it which is why I'm making discreet and legally advised enquiries about what I'm paid versus what man A is paid. And as a legal advisor is involved I wont say more.
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Post last edited by Maho_Fushida on 03.24.2008, 05:36 PM.
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| 03.24.2008, 05:28 PM |
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Miyrru
Graphic Designer
Registration Date: 08.16.06
Location: Freezing cold Northern Ontario
Posts: 7178 |
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@Fushy, yeah it is also a sexism point, I understand that it is bad when you get underpaid and you can see it. I am pretty sure that that would suck. What are you going to do in your situation? Are you going to stand up to your boss and say that you believe you should be paid equally? Isn't that your right?
@Theowne, I thought i'd throw out a little Billy Cunningham. I saw nothing wrong with hiim saying his full name. It is his name. Its not like I'm making it up. Anyone can wiki Barrack and see his full name, its not like it is hidden information. Whats the big deal?
I don't really care about what his pastor was saying in the past because of the situation he was in. Judging his actions now, in now, it appears to me that he just happens to be a racist. I'm not judging his comments back then, i'm judging what he is doing right now. What happened back then cant be changed back then. If he wants change now, im sure attacking people like that would not be the best call. Obama can't control who supports him, but he can control who he supports. Wright is an example of this. I'm judging him on the company he keeps, and if his spiritual guider decides that a guy like Farrakhan a lifetime achievement award, then i start to question what is going on here. I believe I can judge him on the company he keeps. So will the rest of the nation. When you try to become a president you have to be prepared to have every inch of your life scaled over, some of its fair, other bits aren't, but these things do happen.
EDIT:
quote:
quote:If I was running a business, I'd higher all women and pay them less than the men. That would be a smart business decision.
It would. It would also be illegal. You'd be happy being a criminal?
Hence the equal opportunity laws bit at the end? Come on, no need to break it up to misquote me. The point of putting the last part on was to say that my if gets quashed by the equal opportunity laws.
quote:
I don't think your personal circumstances are relevant at all, we each are capable of doing exactly what we are capable of doing, we go out there and do it which is why I'm making discreet and legally advised enquiries about what I'm paid versus what man A is paid. And as a legal advisor is involved I wont say more.
I agree that he went and made himself. I personally, can't do that. Partly because of said personal issues. Thats my problem. Not anyone elses. I'm not whining because I want change and cant do anything. I'm saying change isnt happening and I dont care whither it does or doesn't because it has had little impact on me.
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The truth had to be seen. Anything else was a story, entertaining but more embroidered fib then crude, shapeless fact. ~Dave Eggers
Post last edited by Miyrru on 03.24.2008, 05:53 PM.
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| 03.24.2008, 05:46 PM |
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Maho_Fushida
Baron
Registration Date: 09.11.07
Location: Walking home.
Posts: 1498 |
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quote:
Originally posted by #1sanfan
@Fushy, yeah it is also a sexism point, I understand that it is bad when you get underpaid and you can see it. I am pretty sure that that would suck.
It makes me glad that you think so, I think we finally got you to recognize how unfair this is.
I am dealing with it but since a solicitor is involved I don't wish to go into details.
My current job though is, lets say, 'expendable', my BF and I have future plans that may involve us starting up our own business, so whether I have a victory here or not is immaterial in the long term, but for the principal of it I am carrying on the fight.
When my BF and I are partners we'll have the same pay, I'll make sure of that
quote:
Come on, no need to break it up to misquote me. The point of putting the last part on was to say that my if gets quashed by the equal opportunity laws.
I didn't misquote you to make you look bad. You know I wouldn't do that, but I did genuinely think you were saying you would act that way if you ran a company, your point wasn't clearly made I'm afraid. The fact that you wouldn't do that -I hope?- gives me confidence.
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I agree that he went and made himself. I personally, can't do that.
Which therefore defeats the point you made.
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I'm not whining because I want change and cant do anything. I'm saying change isnt happening and I dont care whither it does or doesn't because it has had little impact on me.
Ah, Sanfan, your view of the world is so wrong, it makes me sad to see it. Change is happening. Individuals are making it happen. They have always made it happen, the abolition of slavery and apartheid and women's suffrage happened because individuals wanted change badly enough. Can't you see that? Its how world history takes place, everything happens because people feel strongly enough to make it so. The fact you refuse to see this is so... well first I just don't get you when you argue against this and second, it just upsets me when someone I like a lot holds these, uh, well I think of them as defeatist views. The world just isn't like the way you see it.
You might think it has little impact on you since you are male, but if true sexual equality does come about the whole of society will go through a shift. That will affect you. Everything affects you, Sanfan, whether you want it to or not or whether you think it will or not. Like me, you're briefly here on this planet and part of the global society, you and I are like tiny cells in a big organism, of course it affects us.
If I carry on with my personal battle right now one more employer will get told it's not right to treat women different to men. If enough individuals carry on acting this way sexual equality will come about, change will happen.
LATE EDIT : inserted the words "the abolition of" in front of "slavery".
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Post last edited by Maho_Fushida on 03.25.2008, 05:14 AM.
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| 03.24.2008, 09:47 PM |
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Miyrru
Graphic Designer
Registration Date: 08.16.06
Location: Freezing cold Northern Ontario
Posts: 7178 |
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quote:
It makes me glad that you think so, I think we finally got you to recognize how unfair this is.
I am dealing with it but since a solicitor is involved I don't wish to go into details.
My current job though is, lets say, 'expendable', my BF and I have future plans that may involve us starting up our own business, so whether I have a victory here or not is immaterial in the long term, but for the principal of it I am carrying on the fight.
I'm pretty sure I never said it was fair. I understand that it is unfair. I'm saying that it is a tough change and that it is hard to get that last little bit. Take your situation. You said your job is expendable in a sense. Would wou put your career on the line if it wasn't? Look at what you 'whistleblowers" face. I'm not sure you have the same protection as they do over here. But that is a hard decision for someone to make. Glad you can, but are other women going to rise up and take the initiative? Something tells me it doesn't.
quote:
I didn't misquote you to make you look bad. You know I wouldn't do that, but I did genuinely think you were saying you would act that way if you ran a company, your point wasn't clearly made I'm afraid. The fact that you wouldn't do that -I hope?- gives me confidince.
Well, I like to be objective. I am not being sexist. But if I could hire all women and have them fill jobs that maybe at another company they would make more, i would win because they can't blow the whistle as they would have a hard argument if they were being paid the same as their own co-workers, yet less than someone else for another company. I would look like a total asshole. But it would ensure max profits, and thus I would be doing whats best for business. Businesses do it now. They put shops up in Mexico and pay there workers half to a 1/3 of what they would recieve in the west. It is their best business call. Same situation.
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Which therefore defeats the point you made.
I'm not sure if it does. I never said that I wanted to maek a difference unless I cared about the issue. Unless sexism gets reversed and men become subordinant, I don't think you will see me at any rallies. He made himself. And althought I'm not sure the history, he chose to put some motifs in his work. I can tell you, if you ever see a book out of me, which I do plan on writing. It isn;t going to be an inspirational piece.
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Ah, Sanfan, your view of the world is so wrong, it makes me sad to see it. Change is happening. Individuals are making it happen. They have always made it happen, slavery and apartheid and women's suffrage happened because individuals wanted change badly enough. Can't you see that? Its how world history takes place, everything happens because people feel strongly enough to make it so. The fact you refuse to see this is so... well first I just don't get you when you argue against this and second, it just upsets me when someone I like a lot holds these, uh, well I think of them as defeatist views. The world just isn't like the way you see it.
Well, I'm glad you care. I really do. But I am defeated by everything that I have ever wanted. My upheaval left me like this. I can't walk in the same world as every one else. I don't want a career and a job, work for 30 odd years and then retire. I can't do that. Its not me. I just don;t look at the same world as everyone else. I don;t see all the women standing up and demanding equal pay. I see people like you who want to get things done yet have to deal with everyone else still. The world will never get to the point that we are all equal. We have 'havens' like the west where free speach can take place, and these sorts of things can be brought up and debated. But why do we have to crusade and run over all the other nations because we think something is unfair. Why do we always have to be the saviors of everything. I think Dan Quinn put it best in his book Ishmael: HUman civilization is like a flying machine. We jumped off a really high cliff and are soaring in the air, yet we only think we are soaring, we really are falling. But the air is blowing and we feel good, we know we are flying, defying gravity lords of earth and air, yet we are falling. So we keep going untill the ground starts coming nearer and we decided we just need to pedal the machine faster, so we work and work, and the ground keeps coming and before we know it. We hit teh ground and shatter in a blaze of the image of our civilization." I want to be there when we hit the ground. When everything goes awry and teh fires burn teh brightest. When whoever is left wonders what happened. I believe this, I see this. We are on the brink of blasting ourselves to hell in the middle east. We have governmental disary and economic chaos impending in teh USA. China is polluting out the waazo. The tipping point is near. There will be change, perhaps im wrong then that there isnt, but it wont be teh same kind of change you are thinking of. Lets hope I'm wrong. Don't pity me for my views. Don;t feel for me. I have my resolve. I argue because I can, because we are so subjective of everything I believe an objective view point is necessary. Enjoy the flight.
And I'm done with this argument, no more pulling me back in, if you want to talk you can PM me.
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The truth had to be seen. Anything else was a story, entertaining but more embroidered fib then crude, shapeless fact. ~Dave Eggers
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| 03.24.2008, 11:47 PM |
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Mush
Baron
Registration Date: 07.30.07
Location: South of Canada
Posts: 1810 |
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Well, obviously there's a lot I'd like to say, but I guess I won't, since you're out. But you should re-watch Barack's speech, since you seem to have misinterpreted it. He hasn't distanced himself from his pastor the way you might expect.
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| 03.25.2008, 02:45 AM |
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Maho_Fushida
Baron
Registration Date: 09.11.07
Location: Walking home.
Posts: 1498 |
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I'm going to reply Sanfan because I care about this and I'm not only talking to you. Who knows, some exploited Mexican might be reading this. You never know who is listening when you jabber on.
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Originally posted by #1sanfan I'm pretty sure I never said it was fair.
I'm pretty sure I didn't say that either
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it is hard to get that last little bit.
I agree with you But trying for it inspires people. And we don't need a utopia, but we should aim for it.
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Take your situation. You said your job is expendable in a sense. Would wou put your career on the line if it wasn't?
Of course. Yes, I know it's as easy for me to say that as it is for you to say you'd be more bothered by this is you were female but it's true. I'm not only fighting for myself in these things but other exploited women who might be struggling under the same illegal practice in this and other companies. I think that is an aim people all have in such situations, their fight ups the chances for everyone in the same plight.
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I am not being sexist
Yes you are, the example you give is a perfect example of sexism - exploiting women because they are women.
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in Mexico and pay there workers half to a 1/3 of what they would recieve in the west.
I agree that the exploitation of developing country labor is a dreadful situation but it too is being tackled by activist groups and by the consumer who is being more circumspect in where they buy their goods. I have a blacklist of companies in my purse whose products I refuse to have in the house. When I have the opportunity I ask my friends not to buy their products too, and why.
But we are talking about sexism here not labor exploitation.
Even so, people are working to improve that situation too.
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But I am defeated by everything that I have ever wanted.
A person is only defeated when he sits down and admits it. It is all down to personal spirit and goals. If you want it bad enough you will go and get it, we all have that ability regardless of what has befallen us. In a way you could say that I labour under a burden too simply due to my gender. Your situation is unfair. So is mine. I'm working as best I can to even things up.
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why do we have to crusade and run over all the other nations because we think something is unfair.
You are exaggerating, we're not running over other nations, we are working on many issues such as recycling, greenhouse gas emissions, sustainable wood sources, non-fossil power sources in order that there is a future world for us all to enjoy. If China refuses to see that we just have to keep plugging away at them until they do. That they don't right now is no reason to give up and stick our heads in the sand and wait for the big crash.
I think Dan Quinn talks a load of nonesense In my view I see the ground dropping away faster and faster and we are having to pedal less vigorously the higher we go. This is an awesome ride and the view will get better the higher we go.
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Lets hope I'm wrong. Don;t feel for me.
I hope you're wrong too. And I do feel for you, its a human trait, you are I are not islands, we are in this together.[/quote]
Sorry, I won't use PMs for this, it's not how I work. If you don't even read this it's no matter, the world will still improve and you will be in it and sexism will go on being fought against.
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| 03.25.2008, 05:46 AM |
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FullyFunctional
Kodama
Registration Date: 05.17.08
Location: England, UK
Posts: 17 |
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Another thing you should consider is the age of the females, as it is usual in the far East for men to dominate over women of the same age and less, but the word of old (great)grandmothers of many asian families (especially indian) is usually taken as the final word which noone can argue with.
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| 05.18.2008, 08:33 AM |
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