Ghibli Tavern - Women in Japan

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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank I don't think it is reasonable to generalise on such matters. Yes it may happen to a degree but every marriage is made up of two individuals and they will conduct their lives as they see fit, so I do not think it's accurate to portray Japanese married life with such a broad brush. I feel sure that for every household where the wife is in charge there will be one where the husband is and a third where the arrangement is a deal between equals.

Um no, as sweeping as that statement may sound, that is the general situation of current Japan

Much like how the general situation in families is for the father to be the breadwinner, not the mom. Sorry Saddle.

And if it helps, I have the same confirmation on the above argument from three native teachers, and two friends studying in Japan

Not to mention that dballred lives in Japan half the time, and has a Japanese wife (surprised me too), so you can take it as pretty accurate.

Side topic, it's the Ainu culture, and wise old women aren't that rare before nor now. Every culture has their own form of Delfi oracle, eh?

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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

02.26.2008, 10:49 AM

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Well, I think there could be a difference between younger couples and older couples. It wouldn't surprise me if younger families are more modern and older ones more traditional. So Saddles is probably right in that you can't paint a society with one brush, because there's always demographics that you leave out.

All of the above confirmations could be in their '20s and '30s

@Saddles - yeah, the ending was a bit of a deus-ex-machina resolution, but I think that's because if Miyazaki had extended it to its natural conclusion, it would have been a very bleak picture.

Or maybe I'm not taking the metaphor far enough. Maybe when they cut the head off the great forest spirit and it turns into a black death puddle, that's Miyazaki warning us what the consequences are of pushing environmental destruction too far. In the words of Carl Sagan, "anything else you're interested in is not going to happen if you can't breathe the air and drink the water".

In that case, Miyazaki seems to predict that when we see the real consequences (death puddle) that our greed (wanting the god's head) has on ourselves through the destruction of the environment, we'll do the right thing and give the head back.

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02.27.2008, 12:45 AM

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I certainly hope so, boy do I hope so.

Going back to the 'typical' Japanese family unit, of course I've never been there and dballred has so he speaks with some authority while I don't. I agree the family depicted in "Yamadas" is exactly the one he describes but I cannot believe that every family unit is like that, there have to be exceptions, and significant numbers of them, is what I'm saying.

And yes, it may be a demographic split.

The typical traditional British family unit could also have been what dballred described in which the husband thinks he's the boss but isn't - its a standing joke here, but younger families are very much more 'team efforts' nowadays, times are changing and I'm sure that's true across the developed world.

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02.27.2008, 07:33 AM

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[Replies to old post in a dead topic]

quote:
Originally posted by OnYourMark
Second Paragraph: I don't agree with men being the superior gender, but I do agree that men generally have physical and mental advantages over women. Some liberals (or "progressives"..) would say different, and many of them have started what we American Republicans call the Left's War on Science. Some liberals deny IQ tests and some DNA applications because they tend to reveal a lot of truthful information about race and gender, information which the tolerant Left would rather have hidden.

uhh... I'm not racist. And, though I don't think any of you will, you can call me sexist if you want (but I really believe that I am not).

Sorry, it took me awhile... anyway, I was just reading a book (you may have heard of it) called "Freakonomics", which takes a close look at this sort of issue. The chapter I've read up to has examined in good detail the issue of whether or not racial background affects intelligence (test scores, according to the author).

Anyway, the conclusion is that black students are much more likely to score poorly on tests, but only because of their socioeconomic background. When controlling for those factors, the difference starkly disappears. So the reason that black students do generally worse is because blacks are generally much more impoverished.

I haven't finished the book yet, so I'm curious to read more. My expectation is that the fabled difference in skills set between males and females will also disappear when controlling for those kinds of factors. I think I'm going to do some research on the subject, to see what studies have been done.

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Post last edited by Mush on 03.12.2008, 01:53 AM.

03.12.2008, 01:52 AM

Seiji
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I'd like to expand on that last post by Mushka be mentioning another IQ test misinterpretation as applied to race/ethnic groups.

The fact of the matter is that IQ tests, at least in the U.S., by and large, are written by affluent white male Americans. The less accustomed you as an individual, or as a race, ethnic group, gender, or whatever, are to that group, the lower you will score on average.

For example, European immigrants were at one time thought to be of lower intelligence because they as a group scored lower on average than the rest of the country. But as an expanded look at the statistics will show you, their children, and even more so their children's children scored much higher. Is it reasonable to assume then that growing up in America made them smarter than their parents? Of course not. The fact of the matter is that the farther removed you are culturally from the test writers, the more difficult it will be for you to score well.

Sorry for that. I realize that it isn't exactly on topic.

03.12.2008, 02:20 AM

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Hardly, I think it relates to the topic.

However, while the race argument is perfectly vaild (and obvious, since the colour of your skin has nothing to do with your brain capacity), the same cannot the said for the gender divide.

And technically, you cannot assume that males will generally have a higher IQ capacity; that is equally invalid, since the capacity for learning is independant between every individual.

(Bolded because oh-so many people don't even know what IQ refers to.)

The argument was the AREA of capacity, that is to say, the expertise where each gender can generally assume. Women are said to have a tendency to do better in the arts; that is to say, women are more emotionally inclined, which scientists often argue as a manifestation of women's instinct, or to be more precise, a mother's instinct. You can't be a good mother without a good grasp of emotions after all (which is also why most wives agree that their husbands make bad housekeepers).

And on the flipside, men have a tendency to be more logical (girls read: insensitive), and hence have that slight edge for the leadership position.

My teacher, a sociology degree holder, told us once how male bosses fuss about the meeting materials before a meeting, while a female boss fuss about the location, time and whether the staff each have a glass full of water before commencing

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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

03.12.2008, 09:05 AM

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How many female accountants do you think there are?

03.12.2008, 10:55 AM

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How many female math professors do you think there are?

Accountants are almost literally specialized clerks, and considering the boom of typists in the 70's, and the common stereotype of the office lady...

'Sides, basic accounting hardly uses advanced maths, does it? Not everyone is a senior accountant.

03.12.2008, 11:20 AM

Theowne
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Uh, I didn't notice this post until now, so I will go off-topic for a second:

quote:
Originally posted by OnYourMark
[QUOTE]Some liberals deny IQ tests and some DNA applications because they tend to reveal a lot of truthful information about race and gender, information which the tolerant Left would rather have hidden.

It's such a bizarre thing how being "tolerant" has become an insult to some people, mostly far-right Republicans. Doesn't make sense to me at all, but then again, that's why I'm not a right-winger. I find it a bit childish.

By the way, if you're going to represent science, some more research would be handy - while it's easy to conduct broad research and then claim that Sub-saharan Africans inherently have lower IQ than a middle-class European (I don't know what else you would expect, comparing rural folk with little access to good schools, etc, with relatively well off children in developed environments) - the actual "science" part comes in when you compare evidence to make a conclusion. First step is to actually go out and read the books which negate that perspective (I suppose the scientists responsible for these books are also waging a "war on science" ). If you did, I wonder how one could possibly explain every study which shows that the children, when raised in equal, developed environments, show no disadvantage in IQ at all.

I know it's much easier to digest the simplistic, broad view of things rather than chalk up all the evidence together and make informed conclusions, but you can't claim to be representing science in the same breath. I mean, people can have freedom of speech and believe anything that makes them feel better but just don't make the claim that it's scientific just because you read it in a well-worded book.

Okay, I'm done.

Post last edited by Theowne on 03.12.2008, 12:26 PM.

03.12.2008, 12:13 PM

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quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller Accountants are almost literally specialized clerks.

Very specialized. My father was a chartered accountant. He could almost name his price and that was back in the 60s and 70s.

A clerk he was not. I would say at that level it's a profession up beyond math professor easily.

I think that is the point Mushka is making.

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03.12.2008, 12:34 PM

TubbieToeter
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IQ tests are rubbish. If everyone in this forum did a test, then went to buy a book that trains you for the test, and takes it again, the results would be significantly better the second time. The tests only tell you how well trained you are to answer the asked questions, but not how intelligent you are. Even the guy who invented the tests back then said so by the way ... he thought the name was imprecise and misleading.
Intelligence is how fast you learn, and how well you apply the stuff you are learned.

As for the women-debate ... I agree women are more emotional than men, and they like to discuss things rather than fight about it, and they are more talented in languages than in rear-parking ... but I truly believe, they are just as good in mathematics and science as men can be.

And also I believe they are the better and more natural leaders. This is by the way supported by some studies that were held in large companies. Big companies with many females as top managers have happier employees and better numbers than those where only men rule.

However, women in every society are from birth on conditioned to be "good girls". They get girl stuff for birthday presents, not science play kits. I am not that old and still had a hard time when I wanted to join IT classes at school ... I could of course join but was still mobbed by the teacher.

So naturally females develop their talents where they are supported by familiy and society, just as the boys do. At a summer job in a kindergarten I was fascinated about a mother going crazy when she saw her little boy playing "family" with some girls ... she did not allow him to play with dolls. So even the boys are disciminated by society and can not always develop their social skills, even if it is more in their nature then football. Another girl was not allowed to play in the sand, cause her clothes would get dirty, and mom wanted her to look pretty at all the time. Luckily not all German mothers are that stupid.

As for women and Japan, I know a woman my age living in Tokio. She is currently about to get her doctor in IT robotics ... don't ask, though I'm an IT girlie also I can't memorize what it is called. She told me that when she came to work in that company she still works for, she had a hard time at the beginning; they simply didn't trust her to have the mental capabilities to count till three when they saw she was a she. When she proved it to them they explained it, with that she is a gaijin. She hardly knows females in Japan that do her kind of job.
After reading the book "The blue-eyed Salaryman" I fully believe her.

I really like Japan, I wouldn't judge Japan as a culture because of it, since the japanese culture achieves many things a European culure can never achieve ... living peacefully together in crowded places with different religions etc for instance ...

What made me sad though is the abortion issue. During a sight seeing tour in Tokio the elderlish tourguide explained me quite awkwardly (she wasn't comfortable on the subject) all the little statues that have scarfs or hats on symbolize babies ... they believe aborted children or babies that die young can not cross the river to the afterlife, and therefor they dress the statues so the children are kept warm ... every year they come to the shrines and pray for the aborted kids ... I understood that taking the pill or using condoms is a general no-go in japanese society ... she sayd it is more common to get an abortion if you are pregnant ...

They are just totally different than the European cultures ... no European company would send a note to all employees after one employee had a accident with his bike, advising them all to wear helmets, drive carefully, stop at red lights and rather take the subway cause its safer ... this happened in my friends company last year ...

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03.12.2008, 03:29 PM

Theowne
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I agree with most of what you said, but I wouldn't say Japan is the prime example of religions co-existing peacefully. It's fairly homogeneous in that regard, practically every Japanese person has similar Buddhist-Shinto influences, moving towards secularism, etc. It's not like India where you have completely different religions co-existing (and it's actually quite good at this time, unlike in the past). Japan itself is basically a very homogeneous place and also kind of xenophobic as well, this may be letting up in the present, I'm not sure.

Saying women are natural leaders or whatever just seems to be the same silliness except in the opposite direction. You can't dictate the outcome of a person's life because they're a female or a male or if they're short or tall, and etc. Humans have free will and the fact that you can find examples of any kind of person in almost any field shows that there is no "ceiling" of achievement for any one group of people.

03.12.2008, 03:46 PM

TubbieToeter
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I'm not sure if I agree. I do believe that there are differences between the genders when it comes down to "how you tick", and I do also think that we still carry many stuff in us that we were using in the stone age as well. The reflexes we have the moments we are born is just one example.

Also, medical companies are slowly learning, that females have a different biochemistry. Some medicines that have only been tested on men as a tradition, show shockingly different results when tested on female groups! This has nothing to do with society, this is pure chemistry. Just as there are biological differences between races too ... they simply exist and are not a product of racism. Some races have a general problem digesting alcohol, others have similar problems with cowmilk, and so on.

This is where the natural leader remark comes from. I really believe due to their millenia old past as mothers and caretakes of their kind women lead easily cause that's what were forced to do every day. Managing a family is not so much different than managing companies or countries ... the base tasks are the same: politics, taking alternatives into account, a lot of talking, compromises, and having the strength to make final decisions and see that they are obeyed. I'm not saying they are better than men. Probably different though.

Anyway, I primarily wanted to oppose to the statement that men are more level-headed and therefore the more natural leaders ... I say women are natural leaders as well. If you let them.

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03.12.2008, 04:12 PM

Seiji
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With regards to either women or men being "natural" anything, I'd like to mention an article I read that compares three isolated modern African tribes and their varying social norms.

I understand that, yes, men and women certainly have some differences in chemophysiology, which obviously can alter behavior, but I do believe that there is strong evidence that gender roles and sex-linked personalities, and any patterns that we may identify from them, are largely learned rather than natural.

The study was by Margaret Mead, in case anybody would like to read into it more than just my simple summary.

In the study we have three tribes, the Arapesh, the Mundugumor, and the Tchambuli, all of which display social behavior radically different from that which we consider normal in our gender relations.

First we have the Arapesh, a tribe in which both the male and female members exhibit what we would call a feminine personality. Arapesh men, like Arapesh women, are raised to be "cooperative, unaggressive, and responsive", and behave in a way that is overtly maternal by our standards.

By contrast, we have on the other hand the Mundugumor tribe, who's men and women both exhibit personalities that "we in our culture would find only in an undisciplined and very violent male." The Mundugumor are not nurturing or emotional. They are, as a society, homogeneously ruthless and aggressive.

Neither of these tribes makes much of any distinction at all between the sexes when it comes to personality or behavior, which is very interesting on its own. Perhaps the most useful example for this discussion though, is that of the Tchambuli.

The Tchambuli demonstrate a "genuine reversal of the sex attitudes of our own culture. The woman is the dominant, impersonal, managing partner, the man the less responsible and the emotionally dependant person." Tchambuli girls, by and large, according to Mead, develop to be "actively sexed and willing to initiate sex relations, possessive, definite, robust, practical, and impersonal in outlook." In contrast, by and large Tchambuli boys develop as "delicate responsive actors of a play staged for the women's benefit." (not entirely sure what that last quote means)

If you've read my post, it's hard to miss the point I am trying to make. Nevertheless, I'll finish with one last quote that sums things up fairly nicely.

"The material suggests that we may say that many, if not all, of the personality traits which we have called masculine or feminine are as lightly linked to sex as are the clothing, the manners, and the form of head-dress that a society at a given period assigns to either sex."

Wait, one more:

"Also, medical companies are slowly learning, that females have a different biochemistry. Some medicines that have only been tested on men as a tradition, show shockingly different results when tested on female groups! This has nothing to do with society, this is pure chemistry. Just as there are biological differences between races too ... they simply exist and are not a product of racism. Some races have a general problem digesting alcohol, others have similar problems with cowmilk, and so on."

Scientists have known for hundreds of years that males and females have different chemophysiology. It isn't by any means a new discovery, and drug companies aren't just now starting to take into account these differences. It takes on average 15 years for a drug to be licensed for sale after it has been discovered/created. Scientists don't simply forget to test for the effects it may have on half of humanity during all of that time (unless of course the drug is intended for one sex and not the other)

Different "races" have varying degrees of susceptability to alcohol and cow milk because they as groups have developed in isolated populations with isolated genetic variability for thousands of years. Their allelic ratios are quite different from that of other "races" depending on whether or not certain alleles have had an effect on reproductive success within the given population and environment.

If humanity is viewed as a spectrum, much like the spectrum of visible light, we can see that races are defined as arbitrarily as colors. What we have is a large amount of genetic diversity based on differential rates of certain combinations of genetic alleles and resulting phenotypes. Where someone decides to draw the line is as arbitrary as where green ends and where blue begins. In many ancient cultures green and blue were considered to be different shades of one inclusive color. Similarly, in 19th century America Jews weren't considered white, but rather their own race. Arbitrary yes?

The point I'm trying to make is that "race" changes based on perspective. As far as I'm concerned, we could reasonably argue that there are as many as 6.7 billion races, and as few as 1.

Ahh...one more:

"Anyway, I primarily wanted to oppose to the statement that men are more level-headed and therefore the more natural leaders ... I say women are natural leaders as well. If you let them."

Well said. I wholeheartedly agree.

Post last edited by Seiji on 03.12.2008, 06:43 PM.

03.12.2008, 06:00 PM

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Seiji's examples agree with (but say much more effectively) what I said several pages back in about my first post, which rather got bulldozed aside.

In western (and Japanese) culture the women have been for millenia 'allocated' their roles by dominant males through long-standing behaviours; they have not been obliged to accept those roles through any inherent gender differences.

Sexism exists in the west and in Japan because men have made it so, and women, equally, have allowed it.

Only in the last 50-odd years and more noticeably in the last 15-20 have women begun to usurp this traditional position. Miyazaki is blowing a loud trumpet on behalf of them. Few are listening.

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03.12.2008, 08:52 PM

Miyrru
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Wow, how did I miss an argument? That is completely unlike me.

Without getting to much into it, but I do feel the need to comment, so I'll try to be brief

Isn't sexism, like most other isms in that it is a self-fulfilling prophecy?

All it needs is a little nudge in the wrong direction and sexism gets caught up and snowballs. We as a people have become pretty tolerant of most everything. Women advancing to positions that have traditionally be held by men is just a natural course of events. Good for them, as a male I can't help but feel useless in some respects as the society changes around me, but things tend to move onward and we fall into place all the same.

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03.12.2008, 08:58 PM

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quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
How many female math professors do you think there are?

In high school, both of my math teachers were female.

In university, three of my five math profs have been female.

So... several

quote:
IQ tests are rubbish. If everyone in this forum did a test, then went to buy a book that trains you for the test, and takes it again, the results would be significantly better the second time.

It's worse than that - even without the book, you'll do significantly better the second time, just because you know what to expect.

quote:
However, women in every society are from birth on conditioned to be "good girls". They get girl stuff for birthday presents, not science play kits.

That's true, and it bothers me so much! Rgh. [/QUOTE]Sexism exists in the west and in Japan because men have made it so, and women, equally, have allowed it.[/QUOTE] Also true. Often, we even reinforce it - it's not like mothers would urge their daughters into the sciences, if only the fathers weren't keeping them from doing so. I would say the blame falls more heavily on women failing to realize their abilities, than on men trying to hold them back. But that's only my impression.

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Post last edited by Mush on 03.13.2008, 01:39 AM.

03.13.2008, 01:38 AM

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quote:
Originally posted by Mushka In high school, both of my math teachers were female.

In university, three of my five math profs have been female.

So... several

We must have a really unique relationship Mushka, since your arguments so often compliment, rather than contradict, my own argument (and maybe vice versa? I lost track).

Whether dependant on upbringing or natural instinct, women have the higher tendency to regard what they see and believe as fact. That is to say, if a woman wnts to go to the moon, she would believe that the majority of people want to go to the moon, because that is what she herself wants.

However, this study was done decades ago, and IMO is invalid in today's society. Hence, I would like to state my one single unwavering belief:

Any study or statistic is only as valid as the people involved and in that period of time in that particular geographical vicinity or similar situations.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the logician's and mathematician's point of view

Then again, my logic states that logic itself is a flaw so... heh

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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

03.13.2008, 12:06 PM

TubbieToeter
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Registration Date: 03.11.08
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"The material suggests that we may say that many, if not all, of the personality traits which we have called masculine or feminine are as lightly linked to sex as are the clothing, the manners, and the form of head-dress that a society at a given period assigns to either sex."

I am curious what would happen if you would take babies out of these societies and swap them with babies from the opposing tribe. If it is really only learning and no genetics (I'm supposing here that these tribes have lived like that for generations) the babies would become normal members of those tribes.
Women in men roles were not unknown before these tribes though, if one can believe Wikipedia.

"Scientists have known for hundreds of years that males and females have different chemophysiology. It isn't by any means a new discovery, and drug companies aren't just now starting to take into account these differences. It takes on average 15 years for a drug to be licensed for sale after it has been discovered/created. Scientists don't simply forget to test for the effects it may have on half of humanity during all of that time (unless of course the drug is intended for one sex and not the other) "

I have to disagree, sorry.
Probably ten years ago (maybe it started some years earlier) this issue was often found in the media. The situation has improved a lot lately, but in the 90s women were often excluded from the studies, just as older men. Even for medicine that was for sicknesses that primarily women suffer from.
Even though it has improved a lot, the old medicine is of course not retested on women. Heart attack initiatives still complain that doctors know too little about the specifics of heart attacks for women, since women have totally different symptoms. They also complain the medicine should be specifically retested on women.
ASS has been retested by Canadians, and they found out that it is only as good as propagated as a heart attack medicine for men ... for women it doesnt seem so well.

And it was 1998 when Dr. Helen O'Connell, of the Royal Melbourne Hospital discovered astonishing facts about the size and tissue specs of the female clitoris ... her studies showed that until then there was never someone studying this part of the female body in detail until then. I hope they corrected the anatomy books in the universities by now.

Swiss women were allowed to vote in 1971. Europe is not so sophisticated as it is oven claiming ...

"Sexism exists in the west and in Japan because men have made it so, and women, equally, have allowed it. "

True. But I'm working on it. Luckily I have a very emancipated partner ... he has no problems doing the dishes too ...
Still it is hard to get this thinking out of the heads of people. Similar to religion ... different issue.

By the way ... I was wondering, do you know how Japanese raise their kids? Is slapping them a tabu? Are the parents very dictatorial or do they discuss stuff and let their kids question them? I wonder how they get them to work so disciplined so early ... I suppose Kids of every nationality would rather play than learn ... all kids I saw in Japan were extremely well behaved ...

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03.13.2008, 02:17 PM