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Originally posted by Mushka
Don't worry, once someone says something suitably opinionated, I'm sure your momentum will come back to you ^^

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Your opinionated opinion didn't provoke me. I must be in agreement

Loved your one-liner summary of Shizuku as well, can I quote you?

Of course you may

Ok... now I guess I can jump into the more, err, iffy part of the discussion. And for you, OnYourMark, I'm going to suspend my anti-scientific liberal impulses of just shouting that "we're all equal" and leaving it at that.

But since we're talking about huge, huge numbers of people, (roughly three billion men and three billion women), I'm going to do my best not to make sweeping generalizations. Because it's not likely that anything I can say about men or women will apply to more than maybe half of each of us. So keep that in mind... out of six billion people, there should easily be enough counterexamples to populate a whole country.

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Originally posted by Roarkiller
Men generally are more level-headed, which is why some researchers often agree that men make better leaders (women tend to be more, uh, emotional ).

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I disagree. I've never read that in research. What I have read, and find 'plausible', is that men fall farther to both sides of the bell curve than women, which could contribute to why most criminals and most leaders are men. So I've heard it suggested that it may be normal for my engineering program to be hugely male-dominated, since they're only taking people who score maybe in the top ten percent, and more of those people would be men.

But I don't know how much real evidence there is for this. I do know that this isn't the whole story at work. First of all, I know a heck of a lot of women who would do better than me as engineers, but they're not willing to give it a shot because they just don't see themselves in that role. So culture is at work at some level there.

Secondly, women who do go into engineering apparently earn much less than men:
http://www.scwist.ca/index.php/main/entr...han-male-peers/
Whereas this theory would just predict that there would be less of us.

It doesn't explain things like why female prime ministers and presidents are so rare. Canada had one, but she got in by... something of a technicality, and lost by a landslide when she held her first election soon after. The USA may have one soon, but I doubt she could have made it this far if her husband wasn't the president already. (And I'm an Obama fan, by the way). Hehe.

By the time you've narrowed down the population to the small percentage of people who are qualified to hold that position, statistical trends are really of no help whatsoever. You're only looking at people who are unusual and rare.

And politicians most often have degrees in law or economics, fields that women are certainly on par with.

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If anything, it's just that women tend to be more able in the arts (eg: languages) while men tend to be better in the sciences.

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I think this is a misconception that just won't die. Unlike engineering, the science faculty at my university is about 50/50 for females and males, and that's not unusual at all. Most of my (female) friends plan to become researchers, even after they're married. Engineering may be an old boy's club, but not science.

In terms of actual ability in the sciences, I know for sure that the "top" women are on par with the "top" men, although in the 20th century there were more men than women at the top. Example given: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmy_Noether

I do expect things to change this century though. Just you wait!

Arts I'm hesistant to even touch, both because I've always thought there's something a little funny with studying writing and because performance in that area is so subjective to measure that I don't think anybody could pull any good research from it. I think, in pre-WWI times when women were basically not allowed to work in a paid middle-class position, it would have been easier for them to do arts-related work because you generally don't need an employer, or a laboratory. So there may be more of a cultural bias towards women succeeding in arts now than in the sciences, which still has yet to really catch up.

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Men have, traditionally, been the breadwinner, and the women the housekeeper. It's been that way for milennia, and it's not gonna change just becase a few women say so.

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This I unfortunatley agree with, because it applies here in Canada too. It's not going to change instantly... it will just have to progress, as more women understand that they don't have to let obstacles get in their way. We'll get there eventually, and sooner rather than later I hope.

But in light of our discussion, it's not just "a few women" saying so. Miyazaki is a man, remember?

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ask any man in the streets and they'll agree that women fighting for so-called gender equality often set double-standards for themselves; generally, the want to be treated equally in situations where they are usually at the disadvantage, yet still expect men to open the doors and pull the chairs for them.

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Maybe men think so, but women don't. I actually don't know a single woman my age who still holds this expectation.

I think it's nice when a guy pulls a chair for me, but he shouldn't be surprised when I return the favour later.

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Post last edited by Mush on 02.02.2008, 02:42 PM.

Im sorry all I offended, i must admit some bits put in like the voyeuristic bit were put in to provoke a response. I have had limited success with other forums so i needed a response quickly.

Thanks for all the comments, all have been brilliant and highly relevant to my research.

maybe Miyazaki makes these movies as a sort of tribute to woman who are strong willed, etc. You could say it is a fact that there are woman out there like the ones in his movies... There are woman out there that could care less about equality, who knows why.

__________________
He paused. "I have noted that in matters of religion, logic, facts, and reason bear little weight when measured against emotion.
It does not matter what is, when people are convinced that the very opposite is what should be."
Storm Rising by Mercedes Lackey

Hehe, I just re-watched Princess Mononoke. I'm surprised more men aren't offended by that movie; they're portrayed so badly...

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I know, they really are! I still think it's great though. Maybe it's a realistic view?

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I think in Mononoke the men are not portrayed badly, they are portrayed accurately.

The elder men of Ashitaka's village bow to the wise woman's leadership and instructions, I know the Aino culture did have wise women in the 800s and 900s, a rare matriarchal period.

The monk Jiko-Bou is a typical self-serving scheming lying nasty little - er, guy. Very typical, I'm sorry to say.

Gonza, Eboshi's right hand man thinks he's in charge and has authority but Eboshi has him wrapped round her little finger. If Eboshi and he were married he would be the typical husband - thinking he wears the trousers when in fact that's only because his wife (who actually does) lets him think that way

Kouroku is pretty lame and again totally in the sway of the women generally and his wife specifically. Men's lust for women is often turned around and used by them to their advantage.

Then we have the off-screen politicians, warlords and emperor, all men out to carve themselves empires of varying sizes and all thinking they are big fish in small ponds. Sad but true.

And finally hundreds of soldiers just killing evrything in sight...

The only guy with any moral and spiritual backbone in the whole story is Ashitaka, but he more than makes up for the rest of them.

But I have no problem with men being portrayed this way; the arrogance, selfishness and uncaring attitudes of many displayed by my gender frequently disgust me and we need more films showing them to be the lying, self-serving lustful wretches they are.

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Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info

"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)

Post last edited by Saddletank on 02.18.2008, 09:31 AM.

You could say that women are displayed badly in some ways aswell in the case of Eboshi, but she is strong, determined and a natural leader as is Toki in many ways so the fact that she might be doing the wrong thing is balanced out by her good qualities a little. Remember also though that the leaders of the Iron Town/Forest conflict (who refuse to consider any opinion other than their own for the most part) are all female - Eboshi vs San/Moro.

Eboshi is quite a noble character. Yes, she is destroying the forest but the financial security she gets from selling the iron and the weapons made under her authority allows her to buy the prostitutes and give them far less degrading work, food, beds, family life and security. They are much better off in the community she has built than in their former lives. The lepers too are taken in by Eboshi, protected, given meaningful work and compassion and presumably medical care.

In a way, the Eboshi character to me represents a modern developed industrial nation: she/it is doing harm to the environment but the wealth such activities create allow the luxury of philanthropic actions (the modern world equivalent of medical and charitable aid for undeveloped countries). It’s a dilemma; does she continue to destroy the environment or cease and at the same time cease to support the ‘women of the night’ and the lepers?

And yes, leaders do have to be assertive and in some cases unscrupulous to successfully meld a people into a coherent body. I find Eboshi to be one of the most intriguing female characters Miyazaki has ever created.

In light of recent discussions elsewhere Eboshi might be seen as Japan, the forest as the whales and San as the activists or Greenpeace. On the other hand it’s possible to take a metaphor too far

San is merely defending her territory, she is acting like the animal she is. At the start I wouldn’t credit her with human qualities, much less female ones. It’s not until after Ashitaka demonstrates his selflessness to her that her human emotions are stirred and thus we get a main plot element of the story. I’m not even convinced her feminine emotions are stirred at all in the story. Many people see a romance between them but I don’t.

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Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info

"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)

Oh, I disagree, I definitely think Ashitaka awakens the human qualities in San and I definitely see a bond between then as the film nears the conclusion. But aside from that, I'm not sure if Japanese whalers can be said to have as "noble" an intention as Eboshi did.

[/off topic]

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Originally posted by Theowne
But aside from that, I'm not sure if Japanese whalers can be said to have as "noble" an intention as Eboshi did.[/off topic]

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I like tea!

Oh, sure, San's human qualities are very definitely kindled by Ashitaka as the story develops, I'm not suggesting otherwise, but I personally don't see romance entering the relationship. They part at the end for one thing, she back to her forest, he to continue working in Irontown.

And yeah, I did admit the whaling metaphor was very tenuous... if not perhaps non-existent. And maybe downright stupid.

What was that about Ghibli movies depicting Japanese women again? I'm sure we had a topic here once

__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info

"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)

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Originally posted by Orphic Okapi The Japanese whalers have families that must be fed, a demand that must be supplied, traditions that must be upheld, an economy that must be supported, etc. I'm not saying that any of those particular reasons justifies what they are doing--but I'm sure each and every one of those whalers has a similar justification, and they believe it. Their eyes have been shut to the truth.

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Post last edited by Theowne on 02.19.2008, 09:04 PM.

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Originally posted by Theowne
Then again, the people who used to do human sacrifices in China also had a tradition to uphold and not many people would want to go back to those times, so I'm not sure that argument can be applied. On the economic or "feeding family" issue, Japan is not like China or India, it is a developed country and I think less leniency is called for in that regard.

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I like tea!

ye sorry Saddles, i have to disagree with that metaphor aswell Whaler's are harming the enviroment greatly for the small amount of whale that is consumed as food as a luxury for those who can afford it. The other usages are minimal and unneccasary as well as far as i'm concerned.

@Orphic: The men on the boats might not think they are doing something wrong but there are people behind desks that do know and don't care and that in turn allows the belief that it isnt wrong to flourish further.

Post last edited by T.C. on 02.20.2008, 03:41 AM.

I’m sorry I even mentioned whaling. I used it merely as a metaphor to highlight how Eboshi's leadership of Irontown might have a parallel in today's world. There's no need to actually discuss whaling here! Lets drop all talk about it and leave it in it’s own thread, okay?

Post last edited by Saddletank on 02.20.2008, 09:08 AM.

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Originally posted by KiefaHowie
Hi, i'm doing a project on the representation of women in Japanese Anime and Japanese Culture, overall? I have been viewing this forum for quite some time as a lover of all things Japanese. I am being asked to gather opinion from the internet, as part of my research and it would be of great help to me if some of you guys could answer the question below.

Has the treatment of Women in Japanese Anime, specifically Studio Ghibli, altered since the 1980’s? Or are Japanese Women’s roles still dictated by male audience’s voyeuristic pleasure? In my opinion, Women are still limited to being portrayed as adolescent schoolchildren; vulnerable, weak and defenceless. Even Miyazaki has come out with defamatory marks when questioned about this: “When a girl is shooting a handgun, it's really something. She shoots a handgun as if she is throwing dishes”, “At first, I thought this is no longer the era of men but after ten years, I grew tired of saying that. I just say "cause I like women." That has more reality.

I feel, even after the modernisation of Japan, women are still inferior and Japan still holds a patriarchal attitude. So what do you think? Do you think the way women are represented in Hayao Miyazaki’s Japanese Anime and the way they are treated in Japanese Culture has shifted, or is Japan still a male-dominant society?


Thank you

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But it is true that during WWI and WWII while the men were away the woman would have to do all the work, which miyazaki showed in Porco Rosso. Woman were very strong back then. I don't know what they got as a salary though.

__________________
He paused. "I have noted that in matters of religion, logic, facts, and reason bear little weight when measured against emotion.
It does not matter what is, when people are convinced that the very opposite is what should be."
Storm Rising by Mercedes Lackey

Oh, we're suitably off-topic anyways...

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Originally posted by Saddletank
In a way, the Eboshi character to me represents a modern developed industrial nation: she/it is doing harm to the environment but the wealth such activities create allow the luxury of philanthropic actions (the modern world equivalent of medical and charitable aid for undeveloped countries).

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Hmm... you know, I got a similar impression, except that in my version Lady Eboshi was the right-wing's vision of industry in the perfect free market (or maybe a Japanese Ayn Rand). I'm not a right-wing person, but I do think I understand their perspective. She gives people jobs without discriminating based on gender or appearance, just purely on their ability and their desire to work. And by doing so, she gives them food and takes care of them and is a perfect humanitarian. And so the prostitutes are no longer wasted in brothels and the lepers are rescued because they are all much more valuable working at Iron town, and it's a good deal for everybody. And Lady Eboshi becomes fantastically rich and powerful (her lipstick would have cost a fortune in the period). She makes her own worth, so she has no loyalty or debt to the emperor ("who's he?".

But the free market only works for people who will trade property, and nature trades nothing and wants nothing (well, maybe just to be left alone). Eboshi is only interested in selling things that people want (and not just any people - people who also have things to sell back, or who will work for them). So Eboshi's form of humanitarianism is of no worth to San and the environment, and their needs are of no concern to Eboshi. They become just a resource to be tamed and transformed into tradeable goods. It's the paradox that we're facing today - does a clean environment have inherent value, beyond its usefulness to humans? How can capitalism respect animal habitats, with all the wealth waiting to be extracted, and all the jobs waiting to be created for the poor and unemployed?

The usual argument posed by the right-wing is that humans shouldn't preserve the environment... that it would be morally wrong to respect the environment past the extent that it makes clean air and water for us. Those services it offers for free, but they have value and we should protect them. But anything else? Of course not. Animals aren't sentient, so why should we care about protecting their wishes?

So I think Princess Mononoke is really interesting because Miyazaki makes the animals sentient, and gives them self-worth and opinions and voices to communicate with people, and then asks the question. The only thing is, it doesn't answer it.

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Originally posted by dballred
The patriarchal society in Japan has been a myth for a very long time. Women run the household and, in general, only let their husbands think they have power. The husband dutifully brings home the paycheck and the wife gives him a little bit for spending as an "allowance." She controls the household budget and spending. She will also permit him some leeway for play after working hours, but should she catch him in an extramarital affair, he will forever be in the doghouse. Divorces in such cases are increasing every year and the incidence of post-retirement divorces is growing the fastest.

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I don't think it is reasonable to generalise on such matters. Yes it may happen to a degree but every marriage is made up of two individuals and they will conduct their lives as they see fit, so I do not think it's accurate to portray Japanese married life with such a broad brush. I feel sure that for every household where the wife is in charge there will be one where the husband is and a third where the arrangement is a deal between equals.

@ Mushka : Yes, your Eboshi-Capitalist Society metaphor works too and its a great shame that Miysazki shied away from a proper resolution in the movie. The forest was re-established but this was very much a fantasy happening a "they woke up and it was all a dream" style ending. But perhaps that was his point - the forest is destroyed, the animals are persecuted and wiped out. He does answer the question: greedy men (or women) do hold sway. In that respect Mononoke Hime is a dystopian warning movie.

Modern thinking has come round to viewing the environment as having intrinsic value and worthy of preservation. We are just realizing that our own future existence is reliant on the balance of the natural system. In a way we’re still in the Garden of Eden and the Serpent has offered us the apple. Do we bite it or put it back?

Capitalists are slowly beginning to get this too and are putting back the apple, some are still happily munching away, but gradually the green voice will get louder and louder, especially with the current generation as it leaves education and makes it’s mark in economics, industry and politics