Women in Japan

Hi, i'm doing a project on the representation of women in Japanese Anime and Japanese Culture, overall? I have been viewing this forum for quite some time as a lover of all things Japanese. I am being asked to gather opinion from the internet, as part of my research and it would be of great help to me if some of you guys could answer the question below.

Has the treatment of Women in Japanese Anime, specifically Studio Ghibli, altered since the 1980’s? Or are Japanese Women’s roles still dictated by male audience’s voyeuristic pleasure? In my opinion, Women are still limited to being portrayed as adolescent schoolchildren; vulnerable, weak and defenceless. Even Miyazaki has come out with defamatory marks when questioned about this: “When a girl is shooting a handgun, it's really something. She shoots a handgun as if she is throwing dishes”, “At first, I thought this is no longer the era of men but after ten years, I grew tired of saying that. I just say "cause I like women." That has more reality.

I feel, even after the modernisation of Japan, women are still inferior and Japan still holds a patriarchal attitude. So what do you think? Do you think the way women are represented in Hayao Miyazaki’s Japanese Anime and the way they are treated in Japanese Culture has shifted, or is Japan still a male-dominant society?


Thank you

well im not really sure, but i know that in most of miyazakis movies the heroes are women who are strong and take care of themselves so he must have a high opinion of them.
not helpful, i know.

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Errr ok, I don't really know how to start this, and as much as I would love to type a long, self-edifing essay type post I'll try to avoid it.

I guess the first point you should make is to make clear the distinction between culture and anime culture. if you have a look around online you'll find that generally speaking the anime culture is limited to a comparitvely small part of the total population and doesn't have a huge impact on the population at large. A good point on which to compare is football over here in England, it dominates society, the news and peoples entire lives. It pervades many aspects of our lives and I think people from the west quite often fall under the misconception that anime is like this in japan.

As a westerner, my knowledge of japanese culture outside of the anime genre is quite limited. So I'd have a hard time answering somethig like you're last question.

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"I feel, even after the modernisation of Japan, women are still inferior and Japan still holds a patriarchal attitude. So what do you think?"

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I once heard that "In japan, people are raised Shinto, marry Christian, and die Buhddist". From what I've read this seems to be fairly accurate, and so I would say there are quite a few similarities between Japan and the west. My understanding is that women are understood to be more "liberated" here as a result of the 60's and 70's. The social reform and societal change that occured in this time wasn't a universal event, and many countries in the developed world have undergone a far more "progressive" change. I therefore wouldn't personally describe japan as patriacrhal, although it could be considered so depending on who you are comparing it too. Where you are from and what culture you live in is the most important factor in this question then, it depends on the point from which you are viewing. I hope that makes sense, as it's not really something I have spent time thinking about.

In regards studio ghibli, things get far more complicated. Thankfully with broader questions like the ones I attemted to answer above I can rely a lot more on my opinion, when you get down into the specifics you need to "know" a lot more. So I don't think I'll do a very good job of making any points here.

I think it is highly innacurate to say that ghibli portrays women as "adolesent schoolchidren." I have always thought that Ghibli actually did a fantastic job of portraying adolescent schoolchildren as exactly what they are; adolescent schoolchildren. The characters aren't meant to represent japanese women in genreral at all, saying anything otherwise is in my opinion like sayiong disney's "snow white and the seven dwarfs" represent the relationship between the monarchy and the working class. Also to stereotype miyazaki's characters seems to me as if you have never watched them. Many of the older women in ghibli films are leaders as well as mothers, a balance which even western cinema fails to acheive. You only need to look at the witch in sprited away and the old lady who's name escapes me in laputa:castle in the sky to see this.As for saying that they are,

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vulnerable, weak and defenceless

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i think you are once again misinformed. I challenge anyone to use those words to descibe any of Ghibli's heroines. San from princess mononoke, nausicaa from vally of the wind clearly DO NOT fit this description. Even going back to the eariest ghibli films like Kiki's delivery service the strong female protagonist is a constant. I would argue that the fact females are the heroines in almost all ghibli films speaks far more for the power of women than against it. In short i agree with harmony's comment,

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well im not really sure, but i know that in most of miyazakis movies the heroes are women who are strong and take care of themselves so he must have a high opinion of them.

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It's a very helpful comment, theres lots of truth in it

I'm not even going to dignify the comment about ghibli films being for Voyouristic male leasure with a full answer. If you've watched them you'll understand. The characters aren't there to be fantasised over and worshipped, they are there to be emphasised with and adored.


Now I don't know if what you have written is your own opion and if it is I mean no offense but what films were you watching of you watched ghibli and came to those conclusions????

Feel free to repy to this by the way, you've got me thinking and I'd be happy to continue this debate For example I'd quite like to know what Ghibli films you've see, after all this is a ghibli fan-forum.

Yes, Japan still holds a patriarchal attitude--as do many modernized countries. What you need to understand is that mistreatment of women has been a part of Japanese culture for thousands of years; the problem won't just disappear overnight because the country becomes modernized. Women weren't even allowed to vote in Japan until 1947--long after the industrial revolution.

I'm actually very glad that this thread was made. I know there are many young anime fans who idolize Japanese culture and society, just as I did when I was young. I hope this helps to open their eyes. Japanese society is far from perfect: people die routinely from overwork; schoolchildren commit suicide because the weight of their schoolwork is simply too much; recent efforts were made to revise the constitution, removing equal rights for women.

I don't mean to depress anyone, but I think it's important that people know the truth. Yes, Japan has produced some amazing animated films--but that does not mean their society should be worshipped or defended blindly.

On the other hand, Ghibli has always shown strong support for women, both through their films and in their support of female staff members. Ghibli is undoubtedly the most progressive animation studio in Japan, in this regard.

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Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 01.24.2008, 08:42 PM.

i think the immidiate responses to your post have already covered my own thoughts fairly thoroughly and i would only like to emphasise an earlier point; while japanimation is of course a product of Japan and Japanese culture the two are not as intangible as your study seems to pre-suppose.
My advice for your research would be to look at Ghibli's and anime alot more (here is the obvious place to start) to gain a better understanding for your project, there are lots of threads with discussion on the female characters, characters in general and the underlying themes of Ghibli's.

What you need to understand is that Japan is an asian country, and asian cultures and society rules differ greatly from your 'normal' western regulations.

That alone is worth most of the weight in any report regarding Japanese culture.

There's no such thing as gender equality in most Asian countries; that notion is simply weird for us. Men have, traditionally, been the breadwinner, and the women the housekeeper. It's been that way for milennia, and it's not gonna change just becase a few women say so.

Besides, ask any man in the streets and they'll agree that women fighting for so-called gender equality often set double-standards for themselves; generally, the want to be treated equally in situations where they are usually at the disadvantage, yet still expect men to open the doors and pull the chairs for them.

Advanced modern city or not, Japan is still, in every sense of the word, bound by their Asian traditions and values, and these traditions say that men are the superior being. Leaving out religious arguments, the general agreement is that men are physically stronger and more level-headed than women, hence (the latter is especially true, as any expert of several fields will agree).

In relation to Japanese anime, this reflection is often materialised in the screen font from the fact that the majority of the people in the industry, or at least the ones that matter, are mostly males. Add the fact that there are far more male fans than female and you will understand why most anime are targeted at the male audience.

In short, it's a simple business formula: the creator usually male, the audience is usually male, hence the products are usually targeted at males, where profit usually comes from.

Note that the above is simply my opinion about the matter, and should hold little official and factual merit. Note also, however, that I myself am an Asian from Singapore, so my opinion ought to be accurate to a certain extent.

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Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

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Originally posted by Atradius A good point on which to compare is football over here in England, it dominates society, the news and peoples entire lives. It pervades many aspects of our lives and I think people from the west quite often fall under the misconception that anime is like this in japan.

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Off topic, yes, but I wanted to let you know that that may be your conception of how football pervades British society but I disagree. I feel strongly the other way - it pervades the lives of FANS and we have a media machine that feeds the fans what they want but other than that I feel football is just a sport that a minority of the population have an interest in. If the media think what some footballers wife said in some restaurant is newsworthy I think that's more an indicator of the malaise in society (and the media) rather than people genuinely wanting to know what she said. I move in social circles where football discussion is completely unknown and my family and my friends families have no interest in it, for the most part.

As to how Miyazaki portrays females I would lay aside his comments in interviews, he might be being interviewed today and his comments cannot impinge on a movie he made in the 1980s. Adding in other Ghibli movies, certainly Nausicaa, Totoro, Kiki, Only Yesterday, Porco Rosso, Whisper and Mononoke all depict strong willed and/or independent and/or free thinking female characters. Whatever they are doing in those movies they are doing it without masculine assistance and support an are sometimes portrayed in conflict with males. Miyazaki has also been on record as saying that he wanted Whisper especially to depict a female who discovered her own talents and a strength of committment to go out and use them to obtain her dreams as a message to young Japanese females that the sterotypical lifestyle they are expected to adhere to was not the only choice available to them. Or words very akin to that.

But the rest of anime still portrays females in either traditional 'soft' roles or if they are portrayed in strong ways it also carries the usual and sadly predictable soft-porn baggage with it (I'm thinking characters like Major Motoko from "Ghost in the Shell" or Faye from "Cowboy Bebop". They might be gun-totin' people but they are gun-totin' babes first and foremost - for the male audience to enjoy.

In short while I think Studio Ghibli have attempted to promote the female as a strong stereotype alongside their other themes such as environmentalism this has not influenced Japanese society very much. Such movies will impact at the individual level and may even inspire life-changing decisions in some female viewers but at the national level, no.

The role and perception of the female in Japanese culture is not positively influeneced by anime at all I don't think, and is possibly influenced by it in negative ways.

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Originally posted by Roarkiller Besides, ask any man in the streets and they'll agree that women fighting for so-called gender equality often set double-standards for themselves; generally, the want to be treated equally in situations where they are usually at the disadvantage, yet still expect men to open the doors and pull the chairs for them.

Advanced modern city or not, Japan is still, in every sense of the word, bound by their Asian traditions and values, and these traditions say that men are the superior being. Leaving out religious arguments, the general agreement is that men are physically stronger and more level-headed than women, hence (the latter is especially true, as any expert of several fields will agree).

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Ouch. Oh wow, oooh, ouch.

I hope Mushka posts in this thread

What you just gave there is the typical male view of female equality, yes. But because its the male view that does not necessarily make it a valid view. Many men feel threatened by female equality. Its not just Asian society that has been patriachal for millenia. WORLD society has been patriarchal for millenia. Liberal thinking in the west enabled women's suffrage earlier in the 20th century than in Japaan but its as plain as the nose on your face that in higher levels of business and government the female is still today, even in places like the City of London, a second class citizen.

Truly liberal thinking females do not expect or accept double standards, and if I wish to hold open a door to a person pushing a buggy, help carry a suitcase up a flight of staris for an elderly person, or give up my seat on the train for someone carrying a baby that is in no way condescending, nor is it influenced by their gender. It's just being polite and helpful and considerate. Society simply operates more happily if people are considerate of others.

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Post last edited by Saddletank on 01.27.2008, 07:27 PM.

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Originally posted by Saddletank
But the rest of anime still portrays females in either traditional 'soft' roles or if they are portrayed in strong ways it also carries the usual and sadly predictable soft-porn baggage with it (I'm thinking characters like Major Motoko from "Ghost in the Shell" or Faye from "Cowboy Bebop". They might be gun-totin' people but they are gun-totin' babes first and foremost - for the male audience to enjoy.

In short while I think Studio Ghibli have attempted to promote the female as a strong stereotype alongside their other themes such as environmentalism this has not influenced Japanese society very much. Such movies will impact at the individual level and may even inspire life-changing decisions in some female viewers but at the national level, no.

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Originally posted by Saddletank What you just gave there is the typical male view of female equality, yes.

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Except I quoted that from a WOMAN, not a man And the survey was taken from FEMALE samples, not males.

And therein lies the paradox I speak of. It's not just the male view, it's the female view as well (or generally, at least).

Anyway, we're getting a little off-topic, that point only served to explain the main topic at hand.

And you don't need to look any further than one of the most recent anime release, "Rosario+Vampire". It's classified as a panty anime, because the main purpose of the anime is exactly that: shameful display of panties in every scene with a female in it. In fact, I just read that during production, their idea of a SERIOUS MEETING was about panties. Stuff like colour, pattern, angles.

Talk about fanservice bordering obsession.

__________________
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I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.

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quote:

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Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

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Originally posted by Roarkiller
Besides, ask any man in the streets and they'll agree that women fighting for so-called gender equality often set double-standards for themselves; generally, the want to be treated equally in situations where they are usually at the disadvantage, yet still expect men to open the doors and pull the chairs for them.

Advanced modern city or not, Japan is still, in every sense of the word, bound by their Asian traditions and values, and these traditions say that men are the superior being. Leaving out religious arguments, the general agreement is that men are physically stronger and more level-headed than women, hence (the latter is especially true, as any expert of several fields will agree).

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Post last edited by OnYourMark on 01.30.2008, 06:49 AM.

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Originally posted by OnYourMark I don't agree with men being the superior gender, but I do agree that men generally have physical and mental advantages over women.

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Physical, yes.

Mental? Definitely no.

Men generally are more level-headed, which is why some researchers often agree that men make better leaders (women tend to be more, uh, emotional ). But if you're referring to intelligence, adaptability, etc, then the usual agreement is that men and women are more or less equal. If anything, it's just that women tend to be more able in the arts (eg: languages) while men tend to be betterin the sciences.

Oh, and women are far better at managing finances, lol.

__________________
I am me.
I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.

Roarkiller.net
Isakaya High RPG Site

quote:

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Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

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Is it just me, or some posts disappear?

Yeah I wondered the same thing, some disappeared in the general section too. I wonder what happened. The fourm has been a little fritz as of late...

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The truth had to be seen. Anything else was a story, entertaining but more embroidered fib then crude, shapeless fact. ~Dave Eggers

Yeah, something weird is happening... I just came on and found a PM from earlier today marked as unread, and everything since then was gone. Also, there's a chunk missing from the RPG. Oh dear.

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Post last edited by arren18 on 01.31.2008, 06:49 PM.

My post!

It's gone!

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Post last edited by Mush on 01.31.2008, 10:50 PM.

This is kinda getting weird. The board shuts down for 12 hours, now our posts are disappearing.

Hey UO, whats going on eh?

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The truth had to be seen. Anything else was a story, entertaining but more embroidered fib then crude, shapeless fact. ~Dave Eggers

~sigh~

To answer the original post [again]:

No, I don't think that Ghibli's treatment of women has changed since the '80s - they have been consistently feminist ever since their founding. Here's a few examples of who you're calling "vulnerable, weak, and defenceless":



I don't think you'll find more sterling examples of strong females anywhere in the media (East or West). I'm still waiting for the day when the US appoints a female general (like Kushana, top right). And I don't think I even need to say anything about Lady Eboshi (bottom left).

Or where female engineers are commonplace enough for people not to be surprised to find out I'm one (I would say 'like Fio, top left', but for now I can only aspire to be like her). At least 60% of my university is female, but in my program, it's probably much less than 10%. And this is 2008 - Porco Rosso takes place in the '30s. That girl up there must be fighting the whole world to do what she's doing.

Or where "chick flick" love stories focus not on the lovestruck girl striving to win the handsome guy's attention, but rather, on her proving to herself that she's worthy of her own respect (Shizuku, bottom right). Can you even think of anything more feminist than that?

I can't. If this is patriarchy, then I don't need feminism.

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Hm, my post in here went too. Basically though I'm so frazzled after running around like an idiot all day fixing stuff I haven't the heart to rewrite it.

I think it was basically that your reported survey quote, Roar is actually a man's POV. It's women speaking but they are reporting men's views. You say it yourself in your own post.

I said something else, but it's gone now. Annoying.

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"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)

Post last edited by Saddletank on 02.01.2008, 08:26 PM.

Don't worry, once someone says something suitably opinionated, I'm sure your momentum will come back to you ^^

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Originally posted by OnYourMark
[qoute]in fact Miyazaki is clearly an adament feminist (would anyone disagree with this??)

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