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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
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No, no need to go to church and listen to anything, in any language. Or do any form of services. Nowhere in the Bible does it require that. The Roman Catholic Church requires that you do service (and a bunch of other odd things), the Protestant Church does not.
Once you become a Christian you may feel a compulsion to be with other Christians and indeed it's recommended, but it is not a pre-requirement. You should also be baptised but many were baptised as infants anyway and even so if you remain unbaptised God isn't going to turn you away on such a trivial technicality.
The only requirement is to believe something. You can do that anywhere at any time.
Post last edited by Saddletank on 11.17.2007, 09:41 PM.
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Miyrru
Graphic Designer
Registration Date: 08.16.06
Location: Freezing cold Northern Ontario
Posts: 7178 |
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The amount of off-shoots within most religions themselves draw my skepticism. Protestant, Catholic, Lutherian. You would think that there would only be one path. How can people be so different? It doesn't make sense to me. Wouldn't it be obvious that there should be an only one path? There is only one way to heaven. Someone in some religion is going to be wrong.
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The truth had to be seen. Anything else was a story, entertaining but more embroidered fib then crude, shapeless fact. ~Dave Eggers
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| 11.17.2007, 09:43 PM |
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Theowne
Baron
Registration Date: 02.11.07
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1290 |
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Saddletank:
quote:
But the offer is still free. You lose nothing by accepting it. I'm not aware of any other religion that makes this offer. All others require something in return.
What exactly do other religions require that Christianity does not? Besides, since when is the easiest way always the correct one?
quote:
This book isn't made up. It's not a Stephen King novel.
There is no way to verify anything that happened in the Bible. The fact that the people "existed" can be said about other holy books as well. There are also many scientific errors in the Bible.
quote:
God requires faith. He's come to you 99% of the way, its not much to give him the other 1%, it's all he's asking.
Nobody expects to be spoon-fed anything, they just want to have something, anything, that would actually give a reason to believe in it. We have a book that says a lot of things, some of which are scientifically inaccurate, and for which there is no real proof for. I would say that's a lot less than 99%. I think that you believe that people like me intentionally want to not believe in Christianity and we want to put it down, that we need to be persuaded to stop resisting. And that's not true. We're not resisting anything. We're just not being attracted to anything.
Post last edited by Theowne on 11.17.2007, 10:07 PM.
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| 11.17.2007, 09:59 PM |
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OnYourMark
Warawara
Registration Date: 08.16.06
Location: Hawaii, USA
Posts: 236 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
If Jesus was the messenger, why was the bible tasked by others?
Perhaps Jesus was not the "messenger". The main reason the Son of God came to earth was to live a perfect and sinless life and to die on the cross so that we may have salvation. The people whom Jesus commissioned to be messengers of His life, works, and teachings were the Christians, and especially the Apostles. It is no surprise then that the New Testament was penned by Christians who were either in close relation to the Apostles or who were Apostles themselves. It is very amazing how the Bible was written by different people and yet each part agrees wholly with the rest. It really is a testament to how Scripture is God-breathed.
Maybe Saddletank's answer is more of what you're looking for though.
quote:
Originally posted by Theowne
There are also many scientific errors in the Bible.
I'm curious. Please, show me these scientific errors.
__________________
"Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" -Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775.
Post last edited by OnYourMark on 11.17.2007, 10:11 PM.
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| 11.17.2007, 10:04 PM |
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Mush
Baron
Registration Date: 07.30.07
Location: South of Canada
Posts: 1810 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
But the offer is still free. You lose nothing by accepting it. I'm not aware of any other religion that makes this offer. All others require something in return.
I have to run, but I wanted to point out - there's an infinity of other religions that make this same offer. It's just that nobody has thought of them yet. There's also an infinite number of religions that will send you to hell specifically for believing in Christianity.
(And I don't say this jokingly - it's actually the region why Pascal's Wager is invalid, and what Saddletank is arguing is along the same lines.)
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Post last edited by Mush on 11.17.2007, 10:24 PM.
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| 11.17.2007, 10:24 PM |
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Theowne
Baron
Registration Date: 02.11.07
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1290 |
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Well, here's a few from the "Skeptics Bible" website:
The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In Genesis, the earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. The true order of events was just the opposite. 1:1-2:3
God worries that people could build a tower high enough to reach him (them?) in heaven, and that by so doing they will become omnipotent. 11:4-6
God creates droughts by causing "heaven to shut" as a punishment for sin. 8:35
Jesus goes up a tall mountain and sees all the kingdoms of the world. Which is only possible if the world was flat. 4:5
There's more here:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html
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| 11.17.2007, 10:25 PM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077 |
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quote:
Originally posted by OnYourMark
Perhaps Jesus was not the "messenger". The main reason the Son of God came to earth was to live a perfect and sinless life and to die on the cross so that we may have salvation. The people whom Jesus commissioned to be messengers of His life, works, and teachings were the Christians, and especially the Apostles. It is no surprise then that the New Testament was penned by Christians who were either in close relation to the Apostles or who were Apostles themselves. It is very amazing how the Bible was written by different people and yet each part agrees wholly with the rest. It really is a testament to how Scripture is God-breathed.
Thx for the reply, unfortunately, not what I was looking for, and in fact, barely answers the question.
One, because there are numerous discrepancies found between every gospel. And two, Jesus's life can hardly be called perfect, can it?
Anyway, I'm lost between two long pages full of even longer posts, so I'll sit back until someone talks to me.
Wow, that sounds so melancholic.
Time for philosophy then, in response to Saddle's little saga earlier:
This is a fact, and I believe it to be so.
Question: So is this fact or opinion? (Note the way the sentence is worded.)
Discuss in relation to religion (or not, if you don't want to).
I also thought of two weird ideas while I lay in bed last night, but that's for another topic.
EDIT: I'll just cover this.
quote:
Originally posted by Mushka
quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
But the offer is still free. You lose nothing by accepting it. I'm not aware of any other religion that makes this offer. All others require something in return.
I have to run, but I wanted to point out - there's an infinity of other religions that make this same offer. It's just that nobody has thought of them yet. There's also an infinite number of religions that will send you to hell specifically for believing in Christianity.
You are required to accept the religion, are you not?
The basis of most major religion is for one to believe and worship their god.
Believing is easy. Worshipping isn't.
To quote a story from a very religious man (summarized): Once, he asked his students of six questions.
Q:What is the closest thing to us in the world?
A: Death. For death is always round the corner, comes to every man.
Q: What is the furthest thing from us in the world?
A: Time. For time, once passed, will forever be out of reach.
Q: What is the biggest thing in the world?
A: Lust (for anything). For it controls our desire, and is what leads most people to their destruction.
Q: What is the heaviest thing in the world?
A: Trust (to carry out one's word). For promises and oaths are so easily broken.
Q: What is the lightest thing in the world?
A: Prayers. For it is always the first thing to be forgotten in our daily lives, and not taken seriously.
Q: What is the sharpest thing in the world?
A: The tongue. For only the tongue can injure the heart and soul of another with such ease.
__________________
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I am who I am.
I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
Post last edited by Roarkiller on 11.17.2007, 11:00 PM.
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| 11.17.2007, 10:42 PM |
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Orphic Okapi
Baron
Registration Date: 04.08.07
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1335 |
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Here's a brief illustration of the point I tried to make previously:
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There are two men. The first has one child; the second has two. All three children are near death with illness.
One of the second man's children is the first to die, shortly followed by the first man's only child.
"Why was my only child's life taken away so soon?" the first man laments; while the second man prays, "I do not know why my child's life was taken away so soon, but I thank you God for the time we had together."
"Why thank God?" scoffs the first man. "My child lived longer. God gave you nothing."
Some days later, the second man's other child recovers miraculously. "Thank you God for saving my child," he prays.
"If there is a God, then why did He save only your child, and leave mine to die?" scoffs the first man once more.
____________________________________________
Which man's attitude is more logically sound?
Which man is happier?
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Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 11.18.2007, 02:40 AM.
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| 11.18.2007, 02:39 AM |
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Mush
Baron
Registration Date: 07.30.07
Location: South of Canada
Posts: 1810 |
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It's not a symmetrical situation. The second man still has a child, so of course he's happier.
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| 11.18.2007, 03:31 AM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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quote:
Originally posted by #1sanfan
How can people be so different?
People are fallible. They make mistakes. They even misunderstand Gods intentions. However the church in its various forms is successful, on the whole. Despite the contemporary hobby of religion bashing in the west the church is strong and many people turn to it, in its various forms, for salvation and to have their questions answered. Billions of people saved is testimony to the fact that despite man's mistakes, the church is doing something right. Or rather, despite man's errors, God perseveres.
quote:
Originally posted by Theowne
Well, here's a few from the "Skeptics Bible" website:
I apologise but I am not going to discuss apparent Biblical inconsistencies. All I will ask is that each of you look inside your hearts and consider what might be relevant to your life today and your future life, and what is not. Consider what is true and what is false. Consider what is important and what is minor.
In all our lives we live among apparent inconsistencies from our laws, our governments our education systems, our partners, our taxmen. What is right and what is wrong is for you to weigh up against what is important in your life.
Try looking instead at the Gospels and consider the words and actions of the main protagonist there. Is what he says true or false, consistent or inconsistent, good or evil, useful or irrelevant, beautiful or ugly? Think about the motives of that man and why he did and said what he did. Make up your own mind. God gave you one for that purpose.
quote:
Originally posted by Theowne
There is no way to verify anything that happened in the Bible.
There is contemporary written evidence. There is evidence existing on the ground today in the areas the New Testament events are said to have taken place. There is provenance. There is recorded history. All of these are strong evidence that point to the events of the Gospels being real, true events.
I would ask you please not to take this discussion down the route of our other one on opinions as we will quickly dead-end and lose all opportunity for discussion. The Bible exists, it has existed for centuries, it's contents are reliable.
In fact just for now put aside your queries about what the Bible is and where it comes from and just look inside it and consider the words of Jesus and try to decide for yourself if he was offering you something truthful or he was lying or crazy. He can only be one of those three.
quote:
Originally posted by Theowne
for which there is no real proof
I agree, there is no proof. We have already discussed that. What there is, is evidence. Weigh it up, that's what I ask.
quote:
Originally posted by Mushka
there's an infinity of other religions that make this same offer. It's just that nobody has thought of them yet. There's also an infinite number of religions that will send you to hell specifically for believing in Christianity.
I would like to ask you to consider whether Christianity is relevant in your life. When these new not-yet-in-existence religions come into existence lets consider them then.
Consider also what Jesus said in Luke 21:8 "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming 'I am he', and 'The time is near.' Do not follow them."
My own experiences prove the existence of Jesus for me. I do not believe I am insane and the things that have happened in my life and that I have seen happen in other's lives around me because of my belief are neither random nor bad. They are all focused, consistent and good.
I have no reason to decieve you.
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"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
Post last edited by Saddletank on 11.18.2007, 07:52 AM.
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| 11.18.2007, 04:45 AM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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post compressed into the one above.
__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
Post last edited by Saddletank on 11.18.2007, 05:15 AM.
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| 11.18.2007, 05:01 AM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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post compressed into the one above.
Post last edited by Saddletank on 11.18.2007, 05:15 AM.
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| 11.18.2007, 05:04 AM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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post compressed into post above.
__________________
Isakaya High School Roleplaying Info
"An old man like me stands no chance fighting against a high school girl in her underwear" - Oshino Meme, Nekomonogatari (Kuro)
Post last edited by Saddletank on 11.18.2007, 05:16 AM.
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| 11.18.2007, 05:13 AM |
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OnYourMark
Warawara
Registration Date: 08.16.06
Location: Hawaii, USA
Posts: 236 |
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quote:
God creates droughts by causing "heaven to shut" as a punishment for sin. 8:35
lol..... yeah, ever heard of a figure of speech?
that really made me laugh out loud.
i just needed to address this quite ignorant objection to the validity of the Bible. this really shows what level of intelligence these people have...
heh.
anyway, good night. or morning, i guess, for most of you...
__________________
"Is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" -Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775.
Post last edited by OnYourMark on 11.18.2007, 05:45 AM.
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| 11.18.2007, 05:44 AM |
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Orphic Okapi
Baron
Registration Date: 04.08.07
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1335 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mushka
It's not a symmetrical situation. The second man still has a child, so of course he's happier.
Don't be ridiculous. The whole point was to show that no matter what happened, the second man would be thankful because he knew his life was in God's hands; that no matter what happened, the first man would be unsatisfied. It had to be an asymmetrical situation to demonstrate that, whether the situation is a tragic death or a miraculous recovery, the men would have the same attitudes--the first man would always be negative, and the second man would always be positive.
Even if both of the second man's children had died, he would've been happier. You're just floundering for excuses.
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Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 11.18.2007, 10:55 AM.
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| 11.18.2007, 10:52 AM |
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Theowne
Baron
Registration Date: 02.11.07
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1290 |
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quote:
Originally posted by OnYourMark
lol..... yeah, ever heard of a figure of speech?
that really made me laugh out loud.
i just needed to address this quite ignorant objection to the validity of the Bible. this really shows what level of intelligence these people have...
heh.
anyway, good night. or morning, i guess, for most of you...
Well, that's nice, good night.
Though you never addressed anything other than that one quote, although you did throw in a nice, empty, insult. You'll excuse me then, for not taking you that seriously.
There were four points brought up and dozens and dozens more on the website. You addressed one of them, then proceeded to say others aren't intelligent.
And even the way you addressed is incorrect. It is not the "heavens shut" part that's a problem. It's because we already know the scientific reasons why droughts occurs, and no, it does not correlate with "God being angry". Here's a small science lessons courtesy of wikipedia: "Generally, rainfall is related to the amount of water vapour in the atmosphere, combined with the upward forcing of the air mass containing that water vapour. If either of these are reduced, the result is drought."
But thanks for the pointless insult. It's always a good indicator when a person has nothing to say that they throw one of those out there....Jeez, whatever happened to "Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." Matthew 5:9
Post last edited by Theowne on 11.18.2007, 12:55 PM.
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| 11.18.2007, 12:20 PM |
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Miyrru
Graphic Designer
Registration Date: 08.16.06
Location: Freezing cold Northern Ontario
Posts: 7178 |
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Well just to cover a few things:
quote:
This is a fact, and I believe it to be so.
Well, this is a really erroneous statement. Lets call the 'fact' X, just for simplification. The fact reall would have to be anything that someone can believe it to be true. X is a fact because you say it is so. Belief requires basis(An experience lets say), so lets call the basis' W,Y,Z. Therefore the validity of X is tied to having W,Y,Z occur. But if this fact is a true fact, which would make it indisputable, then it would be able to apply to everyone. If you showed X to someone, they would pull on their W,Y,Z's and agree with you, but what if these basis' weren't there? If you then show someone the X, and then the basis as to why you believe it to be so, yet that person cannot find any basis that would allow them to relate to it, they do not have proof to them that verifies the fact.
I'm sure none of that made sense. But in a nutshell, religion is like an inside joke. The people in the joke had similar experiences and are into it. Talk amongst themselves about it, being a tight little circle. Then the people on the outside, they can subscribe to the joke, be around it enough to think it might be true. But they still are casting themselves into the sea of uncertainty to wither they really do get it.
quote:
People are fallible. They make mistakes. They even misunderstand Gods intentions. However the church in its various forms is successful, on the whole. Despite the contemporary hobby of religion bashing in the west the church is strong and many people turn to it, in its various forms, for salvation and to have their questions answered. Billions of people saved is testimony to the fact that despite man's mistakes, the church is doing something right. Or rather, despite man's errors, God perseveres.
Yes, fine, but if we argue this there has to be some common info here. If I don't believe in God then, your information means nothing to me, its like trying to write a English essay using mathematical equations. What you are using is valid, but if i don't recognize it/care about it, then it is useless.
__________________
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The truth had to be seen. Anything else was a story, entertaining but more embroidered fib then crude, shapeless fact. ~Dave Eggers
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| 11.18.2007, 12:32 PM |
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Theowne
Baron
Registration Date: 02.11.07
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1290 |
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Saddletank:
quote:
Make up your own mind. God gave you one for that purpose.
quote:
I apologise but I am not going to discuss apparent Biblical inconsistencies.
Well, that just about sums up what I was going to say. Yes, I have a mind. That's why I can look at the Bible (Which doesn't have any greater weight than any other holy book), look through it's contents, and make a decision. The decision seems quite obvious to me. The fact that I'm told to ignore inconsistencies is telling...
quote:
I would ask you please not to take this discussion down the route of our other one on opinions as we will quickly dead-end and lose all opportunity for discussion. The Bible exists, it has existed for centuries, it's contents are reliable.
Again, Saddletank, nothing against you personally, but I' m not going to suddenly believe something is a fact just because you keep saying it is. All religions do that. If you look at it from the perspective of a non-Christian then you will understand. Also, if the simple human ability to reason (which would be God-given) disrupts the ability to believe in the Bible, than that's a problem with the Bible.
quote:
consider the words and actions of the main protagonist there. Is what he says true or false, consistent or inconsistent, good or evil, useful or irrelevant, beautiful or ugly?
I consider the words of many characters from movies andbooks to be consistent, good, true, and beautiful. That does not have anything to do with believing in it or worshiping
Post last edited by Theowne on 11.18.2007, 12:39 PM.
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| 11.18.2007, 12:33 PM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Theowne If you look at it from the perspective of a non-Christian then you will understand.
You need to remember that I did do. I completely understand. I was where you are now. For forty years I had little or no interest in religion. The Bible was an annoying waste of space in hotel bedside cupboards. One day a chain of events was set in motion that turned my world on its head.
quote:
Also, if the simple human ability to reason (which would be God-given) disrupts the ability to believe in the Bible, than that's a problem with the Bible.
It's only a problem, sadly, for those who choose to reject it.
quote:
I consider the words of many characters from movies andbooks to be consistent, good, true, and beautiful. That does not have anything to do with believing in it or worshiping.
Movie and book characters cannot give you eternal life. Nor change your entire approach to life. Nor have their teachings formed the basis of a large number of nations laws and governmental systems. Nor affect our daily lives in all manner of ways both large and small, even down to the calender on your computer. Somewhat of a difference don't you think? Isn't that difference worth consideration?
You didn't comment on my assertion that there is strong evidence for the Bible's veracity and accuracy. And your comment that it has as much weight as any other holy book is interesting. Would you say holy books carry less weight than, say Caesar's "Gallic Wars"? Or Tacitis' "Histories" or any other ancient secular manuscript, and if so, why?
If you read the recorded words of Jesus you will encounter the most profound teachings on how a person should live their life recorded anywhere. All this from a man in his early thirties whose ministry lasted only about three years. Now was this a real person or is this fiction?
If it is total fiction - a first century AD Stephen King story if you like, why has it so profoundly affected such a huge number of lives in the world over 2000 years? What is different in there to "Firestarter"?
If it was a real person who made these claims, he could only be one of three things: a liar, a madman or telling the truth.
Given the beauty of what he says and it's inherent plain good sense I think a reasonable reader should put aside the notion that he was crazy. He's just too consistent and his teaching contains too much love for him to be stark raving bonkers.
Given that he and his principal followers were all put to death in extremely brutal ways for their beliefs and never faltered an inch from their claims would a reasonable reader consider him to be a liar and his followers to be either in co-operation with him or mere victims of deception?
Given that the third choice is that he might have been who he claimed to be and was telling the truth, and given what that truth offers you, do you not think his words are worth your consideration?
More so than a novel or a movie or Caesar's "Gallic Wars"?
Post last edited by Saddletank on 11.18.2007, 01:10 PM.
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| 11.18.2007, 01:05 PM |
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Theowne
Baron
Registration Date: 02.11.07
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1290 |
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Loooong post coming up (jeez, whatever happened to not wanting a long-winded debate):
quote:
You need to remember that I did do. I completely understand. I was where you are now. For forty years I had little or no interest in religion. The Bible was an annoying waste of space in hotel bedside cupboards. One day a chain of events was set in motion that turned my world on its head.
You're still not looking at it from the perspective of a non-Christian...because if you did you would have considered the dozens of other religions out there in the world with equal claims of validity.
quote:
It's only a problem, sadly, for those who choose to reject it.
So you're saying it's a problem when people act according to their (would be God-given) intelligence and ability to make reasoned decisions?
quote:
Movie and book characters cannot give you eternal life. Nor change your entire approach to life.
And there is nothing that proves the Bible's character can do it either.
quote:
Nor have their teachings formed the basis of a large number of nations laws and governmental systems.
Muslim teachings have formed the foundation for many government systems. Does this mean you will be converting to Islam?
quote:
Somewhat of a difference don't you think? Isn't that difference worth consideration?
Islamic teachings affect Islamic nations. Buddhist and Hindu teachings affect nations connected to those religions. Again, I do believe that you are approaching this strictly from a Christian & Western perspective which will not give the best analysis, unless God is only the God of the West.
quote:
You didn't comment on my assertion that there is strong evidence for the Bible's veracity and accuracy.
Because I do not believe there is. Proof that some things took place or "existed" is not enough, as the same can be said for many other religions.
quote:
If you read the recorded words of Jesus you will encounter the most profound teachings on how a person should live their life recorded anywhere.
For some reason you're assuming I've never read the Bible. I have been affected far more by philosophical teachings from India and various Buddhist teachings than I ever have from the Bible. I find much greater wisdom there. While the Bible speaks of heaven, hellfire, and the devil, in these instead I find much deeper substance. Now that's just my opinion.
quote:
Given that he and his principal followers were all put to death in extremely brutal ways for their beliefs and never faltered an inch from their claims would a reasonable reader consider him to be a liar and his followers to be either in co-operation with him or mere victims of deception?
A Buddhist in Saigon burned himself to death to protest the persecution of his beliefs by that regime. Several others followed his example. Again, I think you are approaching this too much from a strictly Christian and Western perspective when many of the things you say can be applied to other religions.
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| 11.18.2007, 01:39 PM |
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