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Seiji
Totoro
Registration Date: 07.29.06
Location: USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
I do find it fascinating that someone can blame God for lots of things (which means they accept he exists) yet refuse to entertain that his existence can be helpful in their lives rather than a simple skip to dump the crap experiences in.
That's an interesting point.
As for me, I'm not religious, but I'm certainly not closed to religion. That being said, I'll be like this until something convinces me otherwise, be it one way or the other. Kind of like Sanfan, except I have no great misfortunes to speak of. In that respect I've been very lucky.
As for all of the religious here, particularly Christians, I've got a question. Do you believe in an eternal damnation? To the best of my knowledge, Christianity is the only major religion that still supports that belief. The thing is, eternity seems an awful long time for someone to suffer for their finite sins while on Earth. I mean, logically speaking, what difference does it make with concern to attonement whether or not a person's soul has left their body? Just something I've wondered since forever...
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 11.16.2007, 06:15 PM |
  
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Seiji Do you believe in an eternal damnation?
Yes I do, but my heart and conviction tell me that hell is empty, or when the final trumpet sounds, if you prefer, it will be empty.
Turning the question the other way, why, given a simple choice to accept that Jesus died for our sins do we deserve eternal perfection in heaven?
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| 11.16.2007, 06:30 PM |
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fenkashi
Dibs on Supreme Overlord
Registration Date: 08.12.07
Location: Canada
Posts: 5735 |
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I believe in God. I never thought to give him/her/it or my belief a name or restrict myself to a set of ideas about God. It's a more spiritual thing for me than a religious one (I know for some people those two things are very similar, not for me though).
I guess I could call myself agnostic if I really wanted but I don't ^_^
@Maho - how right you are. Didn't expect that at all ^_^
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| 11.16.2007, 06:44 PM |
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Orphic Okapi
Baron
Registration Date: 04.08.07
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1335 |
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I'm religious, in that I believe religion is a natural and vital aspect of human psychology, and by ignoring it people are denying themselves full psychological development. You could probably categorize me as a Jungian.
I believe in personal religious experience, simply because I have seen the marvelous affect it has on lives. Beyond that, I don't have any logical explanation, because religious experience transcends logic. Don't believe me? Try to convince someone who has had a religious experience that God doesn't exist. It won't work, no matter how sound your logic is.
The question is: are religious experiences are actually real, or are they just inside peoples' heads?
Well, to quote J.K. Rowling for all of you Harry Potter fans:
"Of course this is happening inside your head...but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?"
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| 11.16.2007, 07:01 PM |
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Lovecraft
Kodama
Registration Date: 11.14.07
Location:
Posts: 46 |
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Before I state my religion, I don't think anyone should argue, discriminate or even tell each other what religion to follow and not follow etc, it's all the same really if you think on it, they are all derived from each other in a sense, all holding similar to the same believes.
If I am brutally honest with everyone, I'm a Satanist, but that does not mean I worship the devil. It simply means that I don’t believe in Gods, Heaven or Hell, I don’t have a Holy Book to follow even though there is a Satanic Bible.
Basically to cut a long story short I worship myself, the only God I can ever perceive is in my own existential world, we are each a God, I’m atheistic in the sense that there are no Gods in my religion, the souls and bodies of everyone are indivisible and there’s no big war between cosmic good and cosmic evil, I’m a materialistic person and I’m just here to live my life and have a good time doing it.
Some of my major Satanic Social Ethics are as follows.
• Do whatever you want as long as you harm no undeserving person
• Lex Talionis
• Social Stratification
• Respect people, their territory and belongings, and when the fail to respect their do whatever you want to them. Destroy them
• You can do whatever you want, but you pay the consequences
• Responsibility to the responsible
I'm sure I didn't need to say half of that, but basically it's what everyone believes, just some of the facts differ slightly depending on your faith.
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| 11.16.2007, 07:03 PM |
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Miyrru
Graphic Designer
Registration Date: 08.16.06
Location: Freezing cold Northern Ontario
Posts: 7178 |
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I see we have a mixing of spirituality and religion. The major religions all have some kind of loophole that can make skeptics and people who want to take an opposing view on it, some cannon fodder.
To be Christian, you have no choice but to accept that Jesus was an actual person. I think that the good deal of history leaves him out. That shocks me, the person who is supposed to be the son of God, isn't even a footnote.
quote:
I do find it fascinating that someone can blame God for lots of things (which means they accept he exists) yet refuse to entertain that his existence can be helpful in their lives rather than a simple skip to dump the crap experiences in.
This is interesting point, but people dump there experience on god because the simple fact, that if there was an all powerful being, then they could have prevented it. Why would this being sit back and watch us like a movie? He put in his stage hand, we offed it, and then he is just going to chill and relax to the Earth Show? Why not just go with the eternal happiness. If i could create a world that is what I would do.
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The truth had to be seen. Anything else was a story, entertaining but more embroidered fib then crude, shapeless fact. ~Dave Eggers
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| 11.16.2007, 07:08 PM |
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Theowne
Baron
Registration Date: 02.11.07
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1290 |
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quote:
I see we have a mixing of spirituality and religion.
Yes, and it's important to separate them. Spirituality can simply mean anything regarding the spirit, or contrasting with the earthly or material universe.
On the other hand, organized religion is much larger and has social and political factors to consider. To be a part of a religion means you accept everything that religion says is true (which is quite a lot) and at the same time dismiss every single other religion, and all the things that one says, as false. Without any real reason or proof.
If someone asked me if I was spiritual I could agree, or say "maybe", but when asked about religion I would just deny it immediately, because I don't want to be a part of that group.
All I have to say is, try going to a person who has suffered from cancer or some other disease from birth and tell him that this is all a master plan by God. It can't always be that simplistic.
Post last edited by Theowne on 11.16.2007, 08:34 PM.
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| 11.16.2007, 08:33 PM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Theowne This is in opposition to religion, which proposes a conclusion first and all else later.
Uh..... no. Not in my case at least. I did argue a while back about how, in my religion, god TELLS man to find proof of everything and anything under the sun.
FYI before man even discovered it, the Quran already taught us about how babies were formed, about open surgeries being possible, about planetary motion (yes it does), about how rain is formed, about ocean currents, etc.
To all who thinks that religion is only about faith and never about science, I say this: Go study Islam.
Anyway, backtracking a little, Islam has no such thing as free will; in Islam, we are taught that the entire universe from day one to day last has been planned out by God. To simplify things, it's not free will; it's free choice.
Which actually makes sense, since no matter how well we lay our plans, god can easily nullify anyway. Think about all the time you wanted to go to the beach, and it ended up raining.
So about that master plan, no, it's not impossible, it is perfectly possible AND PLAUSIBLE. But hey, I can't explain it anyway, I only know because I have seen and experienced it over and over, so I know how true it is.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 11.16.2007, 10:14 PM |
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Miyrru
Graphic Designer
Registration Date: 08.16.06
Location: Freezing cold Northern Ontario
Posts: 7178 |
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quote:
I can't explain it anyway, I only know because I have seen and experienced it over and over, so I know how true it is.
It would be nice if, everyone would get one of these experiences. But I guess that is asking too much.
Wasn't islam formed after Christianity? I'm just asking a question I am not to sure, and my internet has been garbage so i dont even feel like searching wikipedia.
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The truth had to be seen. Anything else was a story, entertaining but more embroidered fib then crude, shapeless fact. ~Dave Eggers
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| 11.16.2007, 10:20 PM |
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Theowne
Baron
Registration Date: 02.11.07
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1290 |
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I'm wary of a long-winded argument here, as I'm not much of the confrontational type (and we certainly don't need another religion argument), but I have some replies to give:
Roarkiller:
quote:
in my religion, god TELLS man to find proof of everything and anything under the sun.
This does not necessarily contradict what I said. If the religion instructed only to use intellect to come to any conclusion, then that would contradict what I said. But all religions come with their own stories about creation, the universe, etc.
quote:
the Quran already taught us about how babies were formed, about open surgeries being possible, about planetary motion (yes it does), about how rain is formed, about ocean currents, etc.
It is not too hard to pick quotations from holy books, or a certain edition of a holy book, and interpret it in a way that promotes the idea that it is scientific, but there are always alternative interpretations. As an example, this oft-quoted passage from the Quran, which people claim foretold the later scientific discoveries of planetary motion:
quote:
21:33 And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.
However, on further inspection there isn't much scientific here at all. First, we shouldn't be concerned with the fact that the verse has the word "orbit" which seems to give it some credibility - after all, it's just a translation and that word was something else originally. The quote actually implies that the sun and the moon are both moving in orbit - this is incorrect. The moon orbits the Earth, but the Earth is the one orbiting the sun. However, the Quran never makes any distinction between the sun and the moon. 36:40 is also brought up a lot - but this supports what I said above - in this verse, it refers to the Sun not being able to "overtake" the Moon. This does give the impression of the Sun and Moon traveling in similar paths, not being able to "overtake" each other. If you take all this into account, these verses actually seem pretty normal for the time period it was written in - looking up at the sky, we see the Sun and the Moon at different points during the day, so we assume they are moving in the sky. Now, if the Quran had mentioned that the Earth was moving, orbiting the sun, then that would be impressive indeed. But it doesn't, and it describes the Earth as a "fixed abode" 27:61.
Now, before you reply to this, keep in mind that I am already aware that there is probably some alternative interpretation or translation that supports the scientific theories.
But that's the point. There is no definite consensus. People can interpret these verses to mean what they want it to mean.
quote:
So about that master plan, no, it's not impossible, it is perfectly possible AND PLAUSIBLE. But hey, I can't explain it anyway, I only know because I have seen and experienced it over and over, so I know how true it is.
Like sanfan said, there's no real way to answer this. I am happy that you have had your religious experience but the rest of us have not had that happen. Unfortunately, I have never had it happen, and neither have many of the unfortunate people I work with in my volunteer work. And I can honestly say that I would love to have that happen, and for that to happen to some of the mentioned people. But it hasn't.
Post last edited by Theowne on 11.16.2007, 10:58 PM.
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| 11.16.2007, 10:43 PM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
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Several hundred years after, yes.
And before you started implying, no, Islam was NOT based on Christianity. You might as well accuse Christianity as being a rip-off of Judaism.
Still, Islam does in fact include all these past prophets and stories. The only reason Islam seem so similar to these religion is because, according to our teachings, they were all messengers of God too.
It's the same as the Hebrews believing in Moses but not Jesus (since Moses was before Jesus's time), and how Christianity does not know Muhammad, simply because it was before his time.
Note though, Islam was ONLY formed when Mumammad S.A.W. started preaching about it. Before him, it wasn't called Islam; the word "Islam" is purely arabic, because Muhammad was arabic. And the Quran is in arabic because of the same reason. The Quran was passed down in the language of God, however, man obviously does not understand his language, so Muhammad preaches it in the only language he knows: Arabic. Muhammad was the only one who knows EXACTLY what was told to him in the original language of God.
It is for this reason that simply knowing the arabic language is never enough, no matter how fluent you are. And why translations are never accepted other than for explaining/teaching to the lesser man. The meaning will simply be lost in translation.
Besides, no one ever did provide me with an answer to my single question: If Jesus was the messenger, why was the bible tasked by others?
Note: It's not that I didn't receive a satisfactory answer. NO ONE even attempted to answer my question.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
Post last edited by Roarkiller on 11.16.2007, 10:50 PM.
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| 11.16.2007, 10:47 PM |
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Miyrru
Graphic Designer
Registration Date: 08.16.06
Location: Freezing cold Northern Ontario
Posts: 7178 |
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The bible is the biggest loophole in modern history IMO. It was put together by Constantine several hundred years after the death of christ. It didn't fall from the sky, it was written by man, a committee of them. The quran is at least the prophets direct words, or as so much as we know.
I wasn't going to use Islam as on offshoot of Christianity. Christianity is an offshoot of Judaism. All the religions are based off of older religions and modern-ised. I would say that stuff like the Evangelicals would be a modernization of religion for the 20th century.
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The truth had to be seen. Anything else was a story, entertaining but more embroidered fib then crude, shapeless fact. ~Dave Eggers
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| 11.16.2007, 10:55 PM |
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Theowne
Baron
Registration Date: 02.11.07
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1290 |
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Hmm, I'm not too sure if you saw my post before replying or not, Roarkiller. But I don't expect a response if you don't want to.
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| 11.16.2007, 10:56 PM |
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Mush
Baron
Registration Date: 07.30.07
Location: South of Canada
Posts: 1810 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
So a home or family that is religious does not ever produce Christian children. Every Christian has to hear the gospel and accept it, believe it. That is when a person becomes a Christian, it is through an act of faith.
Not necessarily though. Perhaps that's your definition of a Christian; it might even be mainstream Christianity's definition of a Christian. But I know a lot of Christians who identify themselves as such even though they couldn't care less about the gospel. There's many Christians who've never read the bible.
Why do they even consider themselves to be Christian then? That's what I wonder. The only reason I can think of is because their parents are Christian, and they celebrate Christmas and Easter.
Sometimes that's all it takes, I guess.
Lovecraft - I've never known much about Satanism. Is that how most Satanists interpret it? Because it sounds more like Ayn Rand than a "religion". Don't take that the wrong way, though, I don't mean to put your religion down.
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Post last edited by Mush on 11.17.2007, 02:19 AM.
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| 11.17.2007, 02:08 AM |
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Orphic Okapi
Baron
Registration Date: 04.08.07
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 1335 |
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Satanism and Objectivism are basically interchangeable. I wouldn't consider Satanism a religion any more than I would consider Objectivism one.
EDIT: This is referring to mainstream LaVeyan Satanism, of course. Actual Satanism (devil-worship) is much different.
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Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 11.17.2007, 03:15 AM.
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| 11.17.2007, 03:08 AM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Theowne
Hmm, I'm not too sure if you saw my post before replying or not, Roarkiller. But I don't expect a response if you don't want to.
I didn't. I generally take longer than five minutes to type up a decent post. Like I always say, I choose my words carefully.
But I'll answer that in a while, me connection's lagging, and I got something else to do atm.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 11.17.2007, 06:37 AM |
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Saddletank
Miyazaki's Best Friend
Registration Date: 09.28.06
Location: On your case
Posts: 10069 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mushka
quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
So a home or family that is religious does not ever produce Christian children. Every Christian has to hear the gospel and accept it, believe it. That is when a person becomes a Christian, it is through an act of faith.
Not necessarily though. Perhaps that's your definition of a Christian; it might even be mainstream Christianity's definition of a Christian.
There is only one definition of a Christian, and that is it.
quote:
Originally posted by Mushka I know a lot of Christians who identify themselves as such even though they couldn't care less about the gospel. There's many Christians who've never read the bible.
Please believe me, they are not Christians. They think they are (maybe they assume they are because they were born into a nominally Christian nation or household) but they are not. They say they are but if they have never heard or read the Gospel and understood it's message and each made a personal committment to Jesus then they cannot be Christians. You become a Christian by believing in and following Christ. Any other definition is empty.
Sadly there are a lot of people in the world who are like this, they may even go around saying and doing things that upset others and those others think "hm, aren't these people Christians...?" and so Christianity gets a bad name (or more of a bad name perhaps).
However, all that aside none of us knows truly what is inside another person's heart. Each of these people may be growing and developing on their spiritual journey and who is to say that at some point they might come to a more correct understanding. Judging others is easy, consciously trying not to judge them is very very hard. Its one of the things I tried to correct in my own life very soon after I became a Christian in April 2000. Seven and a half years later its something I still struggle with every day.
Post last edited by Saddletank on 11.17.2007, 08:38 AM.
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| 11.17.2007, 08:36 AM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077 |
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank Please believe me, they are not Christians. They think they are (maybe they assume they are because they were born into a nominally Christian nation or household) but they are not. They say they are but if they have never heard or read the Gospel and understood it's message and each made a personal committment to Jesus then they cannot be Christians. You become a Christian by believing in and following Christ. Any other definition is empty.
Interestingly, that seems to occur in pretty much every major religion. There's a very simple explanation to that actually. Put simply, earthly lures such as money and power blinds most men to their religion's teachings: to do good on earth and pray to god.
quote:
However, all that aside none of us knows truly what is inside another person's heart. Each of these people may be growing and developing on their spiritual journey and who is to say that at some point they might come to a more correct understanding. Judging others is easy, consciously trying not to judge them is very very hard. Its one of the things I tried to correct in my own life very soon after I became a Christian in April 2000. Seven and a half years later its something I still struggle with every day.
And hence, as they say, never judge a book by its cover. But yes, it is VERY hard to reserve judgement to a person.
So, on to Theowne.
I have to check that quote, so I'll have to get to you on that. Do bear in mind, though, that according to that quote you provided, nowhere did it mention that the moon and the sun are orbiting around the Earth.
But you have to remember, that the prophet Muhammad was not a learned man (he was, in fact, an illiterate), much less a scientist. And all the stuff in the Quran being told 1500 years ago before any such scientific discoveries was made really makes you wonder how he came upon such knowledge in the first place, don't you?
So the point, for the most part, isn't about how these interpretations were conveniently made to fit current discoveries- especially since most of them were in-your-face type and damn obvious anyway- but how such information could have been delivered by such an uneducated man.
But I do need to check that quote. Hold on to that thought...
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
Post last edited by Roarkiller on 11.17.2007, 11:21 AM.
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| 11.17.2007, 11:16 AM |
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Theowne
Baron
Registration Date: 02.11.07
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posts: 1290 |
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quote:
And all the stuff in the Quran being told 1500 years ago before any such scientific discoveries was made really makes you wonder how he came upon such knowledge in the first place, don't you?
My opinion was that there aren't any scientific discoveries in the Quran, only people who interpret them to be that way when they can easily be interpreted in another way, to contradict what we now know about the universe. As I said, if an "uneducated man" had said that the Earth was orbiting the sun, I would be impressed. But he simply describes what any person would describe upon watching the moon and the sun in the sky (which is incorrect).
Post last edited by Theowne on 11.17.2007, 11:28 AM.
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| 11.17.2007, 11:21 AM |
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Roarkiller
Your Daddy-O
Registration Date: 06.03.03
Location: Home, resting...
Posts: 6077 |
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Well, I just checked, and it turns out to be two lines I'm quite familiar with. Still, it's very late here, so I'm just doing a short summary.
The first one was inaccurate in translation (when compared to mine, at least). They float, each in their respective orbits.
The actual meaning to this line is how the moon and sun are orbiting in THEIR respective orbit,and that ain't gonna change anytime soon. I mean, face it, you're gonna need an asteroid at least ten times the size of texas (no offence to americans) to even change the orbit of the moon by even a bit.
The line, while talking about planetary motion, is also talking about how the path taken by these planets are constant.
The second is not talking about the sun "overtaking" the moon by any means. It is talking about how daytime will never catch up to night time, and vice versa; they are a constant.
Please note, however, that this is ONLY an interpretations to the line ALONE: proper interpretations should ONLY be done with knowledge of other factors, including, but not limited to, the situation when the particular line was told to Muhammad, the location, and the lines before and after.
And not many people know that much. So interpretations of many of these people (including me) hold very little merit in the first place.
As I said before, only a person truly knowledgeable about their on religion is truly qualified to argue and explain it. All others simply do not know enough to make their own explanatons, no mater how rational.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
Post last edited by Roarkiller on 11.17.2007, 12:00 PM.
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| 11.17.2007, 11:53 AM |
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