Wow, I'd actually forgotten about episode 26. It goes to show that a hell of a lot goes on in this show. But yes, as Orphic has indicated, it's very complicated. Different characters are viewed in various ways by those around them, and in different storylines their role can change a great deal. Orphic's second point in the last post is especially apt! People can turn out to be the opposite of what one character thinks, and ones who seem good or bad can look completely different when more of the story is revealed.

The stuff you've come up with is very good too Saddles - it's great that you're getting into the interpretive side of things, as it's a big part of what makes the show so fascinating to watch.

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I am glad now that you two recommended it and that I managed to suppress the urge to stop watching it during the first 8 or so episodes.

I still do find the old school animation style isn't easy on the eyes. I would love to see a modern remake using contemporary art and techniques.

The moment for me (road to Damascus moment?) was seeing Anthy depicted as the disliked stepmother in the telephone call scene of ep.26. It really was one of those WTF moments. I had to pause and go back and check again, but from that point I knew I had to drop all attempts to view the show in any kind of straightforward way.

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Sometimes I start to think it would be nice to see a high-budget remake of the whole series, but now I'm so attached to it, cheap animation and all, I wonder if it would be the same. The movie (which you should only watch once you've finished the show) is much more lavishly animated, and kind of gives you a sense for what a big-budget version of the show might look like.

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Why Utena takes on the persona and role of a male I don't yet know, it may simply represent a facet of her personality or it could just be a device used by the writer to tell one aspect of the story he's telling. Having a female take up a male role is just more open to interesting conjecture than having the lead character of the entire series be a real guy.

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SPOILERS FOR EPs LATE 20s-EARLY 30s











I'm up to ep.32 now and mind f*****y is getting pretty severe. I'm having to make myself only watch about 1 or 2 episodes a day or else my brain can't take it.

Apart from the 80s styling of the art the repetitive formulaic nature of each episode is really doing my head in. I find it such a distraction from the real content of each episode. Is there a reason other than saving money why the studio did this to such an enormous degree? Is it actually symbolising something like the drudgery of real school life or real working life? If it is its a very brave thing to do - to risk annoying your viewers to get a minor message across.

Akio is really... horrible. The incestuous sex with Anthy is now very obvious though seeing as Anthy isn't real, but representative of something different for each character I'm struggling to see what she represents for Akio, unless she's a symbol of his ability to have power over others and do as he likes.

I agree with you Orphic about Nanami. She's become one of my favourite characters as well, though she also is horribly messed up. She seems so pathetically immature and innocent while wearing an air of thinking she herself is sophisticated and those around her are the inexperienced "poor things". She's quite a tragic figure.

Its curious how this late 20s-early 30s section of the show has really not much to do with Utena and much more to do with everyone around her.

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Post last edited by Saddletank on 11.20.2013, 08:55 AM.

Oh yeah it's definitely getting weird by that point. Enjoy episode 33!

You'll find out more about Akio and Anthy in good time. Unfortunately I don't think Nanami does an awful lot after this point in the series, but yeah she is a good character.

I didn't find the episodes at this stage in the series so formulaic, but I'm sorry that's bothering you. A thing I've heard, but not looked into enough, is about Buddhist themes in the show, and there is the suggestion that repeating certain things over and over is supposed to refer to reincarnation. Cost-cutting is of course part of it, as it's a pretty long series, but I think in general that Utena does a good job of putting unfortunate things like that to good use.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Saddletank
Apart from the 80s styling of the art the repetitive formulaic nature of each episode is really doing my head in. I find it such a distraction from the real content of each episode. Is there a reason other than saving money why the studio did this to such an enormous degree? Is it actually symbolising something like the drudgery of real school life or real working life? If it is its a very brave thing to do - to risk annoying your viewers to get a minor message across.

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Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 11.16.2013, 11:04 PM.

Ugh, just discovered that Utena's voice actress Tomoko Kawakami died at only age 41 in 2011 from ovarian cancer. She also played Misuzu Kamio from Air.

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Oh boy, that's really sad. She did such a wonderful job bringing Utena to life. I found a little tribute on Youtube. Makes me want to check out some of the other shows she acted in.

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Air is a great series. It has a curious mystical quality about it and more depth than most simple romance stories, there's a lot of spiritual things going on with the characters, though you'll need your box of kleenex for the ending.

Its extraordinary that the voices of Utena and Misuzu sound so different, they are quite unlike each other as characters.

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Oh Saddles, I just realized you should probably put some spoiler tags on your third-to-last post. You do mention that you're up to Ep. 32 in the beginning, which is kind of a tip-off, but better safe than sorry.

I found this Youtube series that attempts to analyze each and every episode of the show individually. Sadly they are only up to Ep 9 so far, and it doesn't seem like they put out new videos very often. But the ones they have up definitely gave me a better appreciation of the hidden depth within some of the earlier episodes. Plus the videos are spoiler free, as they are meant to act as a "guide" to people watching the show for the first time. I don't like the guy who sits on the right, it doesn't seem like he really adds anything to the discussion, but the guy who sits on the left comes across as a passionate and intelligent fan, and his commentary can be pretty insightful.

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Oh I might check out those videos. Shame they seem to be released so sporadically though. If it took them that long to do nine episodes, when will it be finished?

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I don't know whether I should be optimistic or not. On one hand, there was a FOUR MONTH gap between Ep 8 and Ep 9. On the other hand, the latest video was released just a few weeks ago, so that's sort of heartening. At least it doesn't seem like they've given up yet.

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I fixed the spoiler tag above.

I finished watching the series last night.

I am... just really not sure at all what to say or how to react.

On the one hand I can definitely see that there is a great deal of deep meaningful stuff going on, lots of complexity, imagery, subtlety and I think I'm happy with saying that this is not just an anime series but is in fact a work of art, a great work. I think, even without understanding it, or even particularly liking it, it has to sit up there in the top 10 anime ever made, easily, perhaps even the top 5.

On the other hand I wasn't emotionally connected to the characters at all at the end, perhaps the whole setting was too fantastical and allegorical for my taste, which I beleive I've mentioned before.

I'm just really not sure what to think. Its extremely good, extremely clever and I can appreciate that for some people, probably younger than I, it can make powerful personal connections but for me it doesn't.

I suppose it doesn't help that my life is in a huge crisis at present regarding several critical worries so perhaps I'm just not able to take anything in. I should watch it again another time when my life isn't such a mess.

I watched the AMVs you guys linked earlier and enjoyed all of them, the coin-op laundry one was especially nice. I then went and found these. The third one based on the Gregorian chant version of 'Losing My Religion' by REM is simply awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJJMhHUFHno

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qjP5uiucUvk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTFMgNUJ2So

EDIT: Hm, maybe I'm being to hard on the show. I think I just need to spend more time digesting it. Anthy has definitely become my favourite character, but Utena is awesome as well, her inner strength really rocks.

Yeah, I'll give this more time to percolate and post again in a day or two.

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Post last edited by Saddletank on 11.20.2013, 09:43 AM.

I really appreciate your honest reaction. It's definitely not a show that everyone will respond to in the same way, and it's not your fault if you didn't feel a strong connection to the characters (you know, maybe it's just that SPOILERS SPOILERS SPOILERS you've never been in an abusive incestuous relationship with your older fallen angel brother END SPOILERS END SPOILERS). All I can say is that I'm glad you stuck with it, and I hope you feel it was worth watching in the end. (Now imagine experiencing THAT ending if you had grown unbelievably attached to the characters, and I think you'll understand my fanaticism.)

I'm also really sorry to hear you're going through a tough time right now. Utena is maybe not the best series for a time like that! I could definitely see it exacerbating stress, as it is not exactly lighthearted escapism in the later episodes.

Also, of course I'm going to tell you to watch it again, because I'm me, but I really do believe that Utena is a series that improves on repeat viewings. There's just so much going on in it, there are always new details to discover. If you go in with the right state of mind, a second viewing is almost guaranteed to give you entirely new perspectives on everything.

Also: Great AMV finds! Really like the song in that last one, too, but wow is it ever effect-heavy.

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Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 11.20.2013, 10:14 AM.

I was talking to somebody just the other day who said she didn't see what the fuss was all about with Utena. I was disappointed of course, but I guess that's how it is. While I did hope you'd enjoy it, especially when you seemed to be getting more into it a little while ago, I appreciate that the show's style and way of doing things probably isn't for everyone.

As Orphic has suggested, maybe it's worth returning to it under different circumstances. It's possible that it just isn't for you, which is totally fine! But if you ever fancy giving it another shot, I think it would be a good idea.

I haven't looked at your AMV links just yet, but I'll get on it soon.

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Just wanted to point this out:

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Originally posted by Saddletank
It has to sit up there in the top 10 anime ever made, easily, perhaps even the top 5.

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Hm, maybe I'm being to hard on the show.

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So really, what Saddletank is suggesting is that Utena is probably the greatest anime of all time. Seems like he quite liked it!

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I think I do like it, I just dislike things that are sooo convoluted that they appear to defy reason. I can overthink waaay too many things into this. Evangelion really only works on two levels. It takes those two levels and deals with them with extreme clarity (for me), making its point in powerful ways without cluttering things up with too many other ideas or symbols that just confuse or dilute the main points.

With Utena I found myself seeing whats, whys, hows, whos and so on in almost every scene, with the possibility that everything could mean two or three or more things and that level of complexity made my brain hurt.

I'm thinking perhaps its too clever.

I want to like it a lot and I will watch it again, but not for a while. I think I need to go read a few blogs and discussion groups on it as well and get other people's input.

I found this one which seems extensive and skimming a few discussions, full of intelligent debate.

Right now I'm just overwhelmed, especially by Anthy. She seems to represent everything, right from the Freudian primal "Woman" and the Adam and Eve taker of the apple from the serpent right down through almost every range of what a female is and can be. It makes goo come out of my ears.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Saddletank
whats, whys, hows, whos and so on

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3Bp9PBu7_w

But yes, I see what you mean. There's a lot going on and I can see why it's hard to be sure of how you feel about it. You can take some time to think about it now.

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SPOILERS FOR THE WHOLE SHOW

quote:

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Originally posted by Saddletank
Right now I'm just overwhelmed, especially by Anthy. She seems to represent everything, right from the Freudian primal "Woman" and the Adam and Eve taker of the apple from the serpent right down through almost every range of what a female is and can be. It makes goo come out of my ears.

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SPOILERS FOR EVERYTHING IN EXISTENCE



Over the course of a few days spent thinking and writing about the show, I have come to a surprising conclusion that has changed my perspective on Anthy's betrayal in Ep. 39 drastically.

So, to elaborate even FURTHER upon the theory outlined in my previous post (seriously I could write about this show forever):

When does Anthy decide that she will betray Utena? I believe it is actually possible to pinpoint the exact moment.

Utena states her intent very clearly in Episode 38: She is going to save Anthy and become a prince. And for a while it appears as if she will succeed; Akio is driven back helplessly by her attack and seems on the brink of defeat. As Anthy watches the battle, her eyes grow wide, but with what? With fear?

That's the moment. Here's what I think is going on in her head at that point:

Anthy tried to escape her feminine role and save someone once, too, and as a result she wound up enduring the eternal torment of society's rejection as the Rose Bride. Anthy cannot imagine any other fate for Utena: she truly believes that if Utena succeeds in saving her, as she succeeded in saving Dios, Utena will take her place as the Rose Bride and be forced to endure eternal punishment. Anthy realizes in this moment that she must prevent Utena's success at all costs. I don't think it's her intention to kill Utena, merely to incapacitate her so that she cannot possibly win against Akio, but I think Anthy believes that even death would be better than her own eternal suffering. In a way, Anthy's betrayal could almost be seen as a sacrifice identical to her original sacrifice for Dios: by stopping Utena, she is taking the swords of hatred for the one she loves.

In a way, though, her sacrifice for Utena's sake is greater than her sacrifice for Dios, because she knows what's coming. She knows she'll have to endure an eternity as the Rose Bride to save Utena from the same fate. Of course, her logic is flawed: she is still trapped in her coffin, in a fatalistic mindset where escape for both her and Utena is impossible. She sees human society, in the form of the swords, as a force that cannot be defeated; no matter what, someone must bear their hatred.

And maybe she's right. Utena's fate is so open-ended it's hard to say.

But if you find Anthy's behavior baffling and erratic during those final episodes, trying viewing her actions through this lens. I don't know if it necessarily explains everything, or even if she can ever be fully explained. She feels like a real human being to me in that sense. But I certainly view her actions in a new light now.

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Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 11.23.2013, 06:14 AM.