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husky51
The Old Guy




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What is Equality?

How does it apply to women?

How is it affected by the customs of different nations around the world?

These are just three aspects to consider when discussing this topic.

My idea of 'Equality for Women' is basically this:

Women should have the right to pursue any occupation that they are qualified for and to be compensated fairly.

They should have the right to live their lives as they choose within the same guidelines as men. (obeying laws, etc.)

As was pointed out beforehand in another thread, this can be confusing for us guys because of the seemingly inherent nature of women.

This is hard...

Many want total equality, but others do not. Some opt for the plain mode of attire, for example, while others go for the more expressive mode of attire. Meanwhile expecting men to accept these extremes without differenciation. Guys generally aren't wired that way. If we see a woman dressed in a form-fitting, mini and acting coquettishly, we sometimes can't help but think differently about that woman as opposed to one dressed in a style that is more businesslike, say.

It is hard for us guys to figure out just how a woman wants to be treated. This is exascerbated by the fact that the attitude can change over time.


This is the start of this thread and the ideas expressed are not necessarily those of the author, but merely to get the ball rolling, so to speak... Let's have fun.


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Post last edited by husky51 on 03.15.2012, 09:50 AM.

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captain george
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Before i write anything, i want to point out that im going to write my opinion, i don't intend it to offend anyone but it might, and if the thread goes on long enough, probably will, at some stage during the thread.... Anyway...

i believe in women's equality. Its not fair when a woman isn't given fair wages, treated with a fair amount of respect, is harassed or mistreated just because they are a woman. That said, its a confusing subject. Some women have a lot of double standards, like, as a man, your expected to hold a door open or give up your seat on a bus for a woman, pay for a meal on a date etc. While its a nice thing to do, and here (Europe) at least is just part of normal every day life, i don't see why if a guy doesn't do that for another guy, why he should be expected to do it for a woman? Generally, a stay at home dad is frowned upon, but its perfectly acceptable for a woman to not have a job, to do nothing but clean up and mind kids.

That's just peanuts, i know its nothing major, but it gives the impression that society has accepted the roles of a man and a woman, the man takes care of a woman and provides for her, the woman makes things tick, and make men feel needed. To me, until this sort of every day normality is gone, women will always be a long way from complete equality in the places it really matters, like the workplace. That's pretty much the surface of my opinion on it.

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zacharykrodel
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I believe in empowering women. The only place where I draw the line is family. Due to the fact that I am a Christian, I believe that the man is the head of the household, the leader of a family. That is what it instructs in the Bible.

However, other than that, I am all for women equality, if not a little more than that. I do not know exactly where women stand in all of the various countries around the world, but I think that we are making progress here in the United States. There are some prevalent problems, but I will not go in to detail about that here.

Of course, this just my own personal view on things. Feel free to disagree, agree, or agree to disagree, or disagree to agree. You get the idea.

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husky51
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As further fuel to this thread...

I have never placed woman, per se, on a pedestal to be honored and revered, etc. My reasoning for this is from my early education from the age of 8 on the seemingly, to me, true nature of woman (a generalization to be sure). While a child I frequently sat in on many of my mothers coffee klatches, as they were called and overheard many, many examples of the coarseness of these supposed pillars of purity. I was even, at times, requested to tell a particularly ribald joke to these women who didn't think that I knew what I was referring to (little did they know ).

In my early years as an only child I was somewhat of a momma's boy and I think that is partly the reason that my mother told me as much as she did about the 'facts of life' while I was growing. For that time period (1950's) I was one of the few city boys of my age that really knew where babies came from.


I do respect women for the different problems that they have in life that is different than men. Examples are menstruation, bearing a child, primary contraception (by that I mean, pills and other forms of birth control as opposed to a singular means for a man), breast cancer, etc that men generally do not have to worry about except in a secondarily manner... I hope this last paragraph made sense...

I love and cherish all my women friends, lovers and acquaintances with few exceptions. I have met many women that do not deserve my respect for anything other than the fact that they are women. I have met these women usually in the course of my working as a security officer for over 40 years, both full and part time. These gals would give a guy a run for his money in meanness, crudity, cruelty and deadliness. I have actuality met these women, not just read about them. I will say this... I have never struck a woman in anger even when provoked beyond reason, I just couldn't do it. Luckily, in the few instances where a woman punched me, I was strong enough to overcome her fighting by merely grabbing arms, legs, hair and generally wrestling with her to gain control of the situation. This isn't easy when trying to handcuff or otherwise control someone when they are resisting and drunk or angry, male or female.

These are my feelings about the equality of women in general. If I have veered off track a bit, it was only meant to explain the reasoning for my feelings.

This is all my own humble opinion...


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Post last edited by husky51 on 03.15.2012, 10:34 AM.

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captain george
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quote:
Originally posted by zacharykrodel
However, other than that, I am all for women equality, if not a little more than that.



Explain, i think i misunderstand you

Post last edited by captain george on 03.15.2012, 10:31 AM.

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saviour2012
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As i am a muslim and i also live in asia . i can enlighten you with some aspects of life that you do not see in your regular, europian and western life.

quote:
Originally posted by husky51
My idea of 'Equality for Women' is basically this:

Women should have the right to pursue any occupation that they are qualified for and to be compensated fairly.

They should have the right to live their lives as they choose within the same guidelines as men. (obeying laws, etc.)



This is actually hardwritten codes in islam. They are written in the Qur'an itself. And it is actually the most important things for women empowerment. It also signifies us the fact that women and men are same in terms of quality.

quote:
Originally posted by husky51
I do respect women for the different problems that they have in life that is different than men. Examples are menstruation, bearing a child, primary contraception (by that I mean, pills and other forms of birth control as opposed to a singular means for a man), breast cancer, etc that men generally do not have to worry about except in a secondarily manner



And that's make them better than us in those sense. they are a mother, a wife , a sister and a nation builder


quote:
Originally posted by zacharykrodel
I believe in empowering women. The only place where I draw the line is family. Due to the fact that I am a Christian, I believe that the man is the head of the household, the leader of a family. That is what it instructs in the Bible.


almost the same is written in quran. Because it is scientific. If you want to keep balance and peace in family,there has to be someone in charge who will take more responsibility. Of-course men are physically stronger. And they are strong in mind in times of difficulty too. In these sense men are better . no matter how the girls argue they can not change the laws of nature.

So now we can come to the conclusion that men and women are actually same . they just hold different position in society. The better everybody does their job the better the society will be.


And now comes the big question that asks about the look of a girl or how a girl want to be dressed

let me explain . in islam we respect women somuch. that we can not let someone make her a product. This is the most important fact that most of the europian and american people do not understand. Here is a quote from husky


quote:
Originally posted by husky51
Saviour2012:It is the case for general anime. They actually make the female characters for enjoyment.

Husky51:I more or less agree with you. Too much 'fan service' in some of the anime and manga I see. IMO, it detracts from the story. but...

And a big BUT here... (no pun intended) This is done because it sells product and that is the whole idea behind any business, sell your product, so I don't necessarily fault these animaters and artists. If it doesn't sell then they don't eat...




this is the real problem. Hollywood filmmakers and other media and entertainment related people are exporting Female as a piece of enjoyment to the male viewers. They are actually selling female beauty for the viewers . And ultimately turning women into products for male.Turning a human into a product is a complete evil. So that the want to become the desire of men has nothing to do with gender equality. Now tell me how can a human who got conscious can let a human being turned into a product.

But the girls do not seem to understand that. Its like they do not mind turning into a product for males. So they follow those evil culture and trends . And these cultures and trends are not from america, europe or anywhere . These came from money hungry businessmen who want to make money. They implement these wrong culture among us to make money and try to collapse the order of society to gain power.[there is a business of 2.5 trillion dollars in entertainment business, so these guys will try anything to gather as much as possible from the swarm and to do that they will show us naked girls or whatever we want]
now if you are wearing something that catches somebody's eye then surely you are turning yourself almost into a product in shopping mall.now try to imagine how you look at the product that catches your eyes in the shopping mall.


it is the nature of both men and women that they should be shy.And you[both male and female] should not try to show your beauties in front of general public.IT is the law of nature you can not break it

So it is a request to all women from me that they try to understand what is more important than looking good. there are a lot of people who are trying relentlessly to form equality in society. but if girls can not understand their own right then it will not be possible for them.We have to get ourselves rid of those wrong cultures

remember the problem always occurs for

this guy


not this guy


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Post last edited by saviour2012 on 03.15.2012, 02:04 PM.

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Saddletank
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quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
If you want to keep balance and peace in family,there has to be someone in charge who will take more responsibility.
This is not true. A shared team responsibility also works. Not as often, but it can.

quote:
Of-course men are physically stronger.
They are not always, but most often so. However this is not relevant to leading a household.

quote:
they are strong in mind in times of difficulty too.
This is not true. I know of a number of households where the wife is mentally far superior to her husband in terms of budgeting, accounting and managing the household.


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Post last edited by Saddletank on 03.15.2012, 02:33 PM.

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Calforsale
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My idea of Equality for Women is:
Women should have equal rights as men.

As simple as that.

I treat men and women the same, and expect to be treated the same as a woman. There aren't many differences between men and women, as we all know gender is just a social construct. Of course though there are a few important biological differences though. I feel sorry how women have to worry about some parasite in their body! Something men are lucky enough not to have to worry about, its really easy for men to leave women (but not to say women don't leave their children with the father).

The problem is though there is a lot to go for women's rights in the world, even in countries such as western nations where equal rights is the highest.

I disagree with a couple of what you guys said, but i have to go to the library soon so i'll debate later.


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Kazegami
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"And you[both male and female] should not try to show your beauties in front of general public.IT is the law of nature you can not break it"

Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. In my opinion. It's clearly not a law of nature when people do it every day in every country in the world mostly to no ill effect. Animals and even plants in nature flaunt their beauty as much as they can at that time of year.

If a girl wishes to use her looks and her appeal for her own profit then good luck to her, business has made this possible. I don't find it fair that she should be made ashamed, or blamed for bringing her sex into disrepute. If a woman has a beautiful face and a beautiful body then it's entirely up to her what she does with it, within the law, and no-one has the right to dictate otherwise to her.


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captain george
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There shouldn't even be a question as to what people decide to wear. Personally, i think some people should have more respect for themselves in what they do decide to wear, but its taking things to ridiculous extremes if a religion or culture decides what a person wears rather than the individual themselves.

Clothing is a barrier to female equality though.... i read roar's comments in the conversation that started this thread and agree with most of what he said about women's clothing sending mixed messages and stuff like that... im too tired to actually write now though...

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Roarkiller
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Will write a long post later...

... but at this point I'm just surprised to know there's another muslim besides me

@Saviour: Though if possible, try and keep the bold text to a minimum, yes? The etiquette of internet is pretty delicate right there, and bold text can come of as too assertive.


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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

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Calforsale
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Okay i read the conversation that started this so i'll begin by responding to that.

People should have the right to wear what they want. Why shouldn't they? If people like to wear skimpy dresses then so be it. But there a multiple reasons why people like to dress in a 'sexy' way. Most people dress well for themselves, not others, they want to look good and be in fashion. Some people wear what feels more comfortable for them. One of my friends wears clothes which always show off her chest because it feels uncomfortable for her to wear clothes covering that area.
And so what if someone dresses in such a way to be viewed and desired as sexy? That is fine.

Something i don't understand though is what you guys are meaning by 'mixed messages'? Do you think if a women dresses in a revealing way that means that she will let any man touch her?
If someone dresses in a revealing way that does not mean they should not be treated in a disrespectful way. And it definitely should not condone sexual assault in any way.


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Calforsale
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quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
This is actually hardwritten codes in islam. They are written in the Qur'an itself. And it is actually the most important things for women empowerment. It also signifies us the fact that women and men are same in terms of quality.


Then why do many muslim countries have shocking rights for women?

quote:

almost the same is written in quran. Because it is scientific. If you want to keep balance and peace in family,there has to be someone in charge who will take more responsibility. Of-course men are physically stronger. And they are strong in mind in times of difficulty too. In these sense men are better . no matter how the girls argue they can not change the laws of nature.

Okay now that seriously Saviour, is just a horrible thing to say. That is extremely sexist. You believe that Men are superior by women. That certainly is not true.

quote:
let me explain . in islam we respect women somuch. that we can not let someone make her a product. This is the most important fact that most of the europian and american people do not understand. Here is a quote from husky


Yes. Denying people rights. Such a respectful thing.

To your next point, if people have great beauty why should they not be able to use it if they wish to?

quote:
it is the nature of both men and women that they should be shy.And you[both male and female] should not try to show your beauties in front of general public.IT is the law of nature you can not break it

Kazegami is right. You are wrong with this too. People show off their body naturally, psychologist note that many women show off their chest to flirt with men. Its natural, its trying to attract a mate.

quote:
remember the problem always occurs for

this guy


not this guy




*sigh* You can't blame victims for how they dress!

Husky brings a bit point from this though, 'How is it affected by the customs of different nations around the world?'
You are most likely like this due to the society you live in (i have heard some baddd stories about women and Bangeladesh).
But i hope you will decide to think for the rights of women, look beyond your own beliefs, and try to think in an empathetic way to women.


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Calforsale
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Hmm i probably wrote that too disrespectfully, sorry but i wrote it whist i was angry.


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There is nothing "natural" about covering up bodies. Nothing unnatural about it either. There are plenty of societies in which nudity is the norm, plenty in which it is not. Societies in which women all go topless do not have more "problems" than, say, Muslim societies, for instance. The notion is utterly daft.

Here's an illuminating quote, from C.S. Lewis of all people: "A girl in the Pacific islands wearing hardly any clothes and a Victorian lady completely covered in clothes might both be equally 'modest', proper, or decent, according to the standards of their own societies: and both, for all we could tell by their dress, might be equally chaste (or equally unchaste)."

Thus: the concept of modesty is totally subjective, and clothing reveals nothing about it. Any culture that blames rape (or anything else, as far as I'm concerned) on the way a woman dresses is a rape culture, pure and simple. It's a big problem in the Muslim world but not one remotely limited to it; the United States is a particularly ugly example.


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saviour2012
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Before starting the post i would like to say something. In a discussion or in an argument people try to establish their ideas by giving facts and giving proofs that backs up the fact. Now if you look at my earlier post you will see that i have tried to make everyone understand my opinion by giving facts. I do not care about any personal opinion. Now almost everyone who argued with me or said i am wrong, are trying to convince me or make me understand their personal opinion, because that is what they want. But society does not work like that. I want a ps3 at 20 bucks, it can seem fair to me.but if Sony gives everyone ps3s at that price they will be bankrupted. The same will happen to The society if one does whatever he wants. you got your beauties you want to show me. i have a big Gatling gun or a mighty lion or a crocodile to show you . does that sound very good? if that sound good to you then you are actually like a ostrich who puts his head in the sand and thinks nobody will see him. The truth may seem harder or may cause problems with your opinions but that is truth. You can delay to face it. But you can never escape it.



Orphic Okapi said excellently how dress sense is considered in different cultures

quote:
posted by Orphic Okapi
There is nothing "natural" about covering up bodies. Nothing unnatural about it either. There are plenty of societies in which nudity is the norm, plenty in which it is not. Societies in which women all go topless do not have more "problems" than, say, Muslim societies, for instance. The notion is utterly daft.

Here's an illuminating quote, from C.S. Lewis of all people: "A girl in the Pacific islands wearing hardly any clothes and a Victorian lady completely covered in clothes might both be equally 'modest', proper, or decent, according to the standards of their own societies: and both, for all we could tell by their dress, might be equally chaste (or equally unchaste)."

Thus: the concept of modesty is totally subjective, and clothing reveals nothing about it. Any culture that blames rape (or anything else, as far as I'm concerned) on the way a woman dresses is a rape culture, pure and simple. It's a big problem in the Muslim world but not one remotely limited to it; the United States is a particularly ugly example.

for other who do not know where it is from[ i am happy to know that someone reads this kind of books here] link


Now i totally agree and disagree. I agree with the fact that the concept of modesty is different in cultures . But i have to disagree with the fact that There are plenty of societies in which nudity is the norm, plenty in which it is not. Because it is the twenty first century we are living and we have seen the fall and rise of different cultures and nations. We know now why those cultures fell. I do not know how many will agree with this, one of the main reasons were nudity and adultery. Do you want to see your society and culture fall.
here are some links you can find more by reading books and searching internet.
link1
link2
link3
link 4

here is a quote from kagegami
quote:
Animals and even plants in nature flaunt their beauty as much as they can at that time of year.



Now we are human beings . And we are better than animals aren't we. So why do you want to be like animals. Animals do not have a family,they are naked, they do sex with whoever they want or wherever they want. Now did not Allah or god made us better than them. Even if you do not believe in god , tell me can you live like a animal without a society or a family. So why the urge to be like them.

here is a quote from calforsale
quote:
But there a multiple reasons why people like to dress in a 'sexy' way. Most people dress well for themselves, not others, they want to look good and be in fashion.


Now tell me why the fashion has to be revealing why it can not be concealing


Now this thread is about gender equality. But how can be it possible if the women do not respect themselves

some quotes
quote:
posted by calforsale
People show off their body naturally, psychologist note that many women show off their chest to flirt with men. Its natural, its trying to attract a mate.


quote:
posted by Nausicaa_Cat
I know plenty of intelligent, strong-minded girls who sometimes dress in what many would consider 'innappropriate' ways, simply because they enjoy their bodies - and yes it's probably for the attention.It feels good to be found attractive, and it often leads to the beginning of romantic possibilities.


Now will you please tell me, if you think that you are equal to men then why you do need to start to become attractive. Why the boys should not try to be attractive to attract you. As for strong minded girls why do they feel themselves that they lack and they are not attractive enough for their job their reputation that they need to reveal themselves to attract males towards them . it is completely contradictory. From these all of us get the massage that women do not respect themselves.


Now try to understand it from a experienced person
quote:
posted by husky51
I love and cherish all my women friends, lovers and acquaintances with few exceptions. I have met many women that do not deserve my respect for anything other than the fact that they are women. I have met these women usually in the course of my working as a security officer for over 40 years, both full and part time. These gals would give a guy a run for his money in meanness, crudity, cruelty and deadliness. I have actuality met these women, not just read about them.



Husky is right. Do you respect a thief or a gangster or a thug. If you do not then why are you saying us that we should respect a prostitute. We do not know who you are in public now if you dress like a whore then you should not expect respect.


Another problem is getting involved in the entertainment for male

quote:
posted by kagegami
If a girl wishes to use her looks and her appeal for her own profit then good luck to her, business has made this possible. I don't find it fair that she should be made ashamed, or blamed for bringing her sex into disrepute. If a woman has a beautiful face and a beautiful body then it's entirely up to her what she does with it, within the law, and no-one has the right to dictate otherwise to her.



Now tell me kagegami you want gender equality right?. Then please tell me when a girl works for the enjoyment of boys, now can she enjoy a boy doing the same? will she be able to enjoy watching a boy the same that she did ? Answer is no ,no and no. She can not see that because there is no boy to do that for her.[in most cases, special cases are not acceptable] Now if a girl thinks that she got no merit and no strength and no ability to work that she has to sell her beauty then that girl is not qualified for our respect.


Now i do not understand why the girls want to look attractive.
Do they never question themselves that why i am wearing this?
From where i have learned to wear something like this?
Is is really my natural dress?

The answer is all the ideas are from the media


here is another quote
quote:
posted by calforsale
if people have great beauty why should they not be able to use it if they wish to?



The answer is they do not. It is the dirty businessmen who actually implemented those girls forcefully. In the primary stage of prostitution in the history of human-kind girls were hijacked from their houses or from vehicles. then they were turned into prostitutes. But after the passage of time these businessmen have constantly grown stronger and now have made making and selling xxx content legal. And thus opening a free market for sex. guys see those and get excited and try to implement those things with other girls. This is just pure evil business nothing else.


I will end my post quoting a line from Hayao Miyazaki

"about my characters many women Especially, girls say, "women are not like that." -laughs-
For some reason, men don't say "men are not like that." They think that there may be such a man, but women say with confidence, "this is not a (real) woman." I'm not sure (why)."
source


Now to all girls i want to say is. Beauty is only for reproductive purpose. Flowers are given their colors so that it can be pollinated. Frogs can sing so that he can attract someone . Men and women are given their beauties for the same reason so that our kind human-kind do not perish from earth. It has nothing to do with equality. So these things should be kept inside bedrooms . The fast the girls understands that the faster they will get equality. Girls You have to respect yourself.


__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things
are forcing you to
be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

Post last edited by saviour2012 on 03.16.2012, 03:22 AM.

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saviour2012
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
If you want to keep balance and peace in family,there has to be someone in charge who will take more responsibility.
This is not true. A shared team responsibility also works. Not as often, but it can.

quote:
Of-course men are physically stronger.
They are not always, but most often so. However this is not relevant to leading a household.

quote:
they are strong in mind in times of difficulty too.
This is not true. I know of a number of households where the wife is mentally far superior to her husband in terms of budgeting, accounting and managing the household.



Everything that can be considered has to be a general case. The families you said about are not 1/20th of those i have titled


__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things
are forcing you to
be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

Post last edited by saviour2012 on 03.16.2012, 05:34 AM.

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captain george
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i know that English isn't your first language saviour but really, half the time you seem to talk in riddles

quote:
I want a ps3 at 20 bucks, it can seem fair to me.but if Sony gives everyone ps3s at that price they will be bankrupted. The same will happen to The society if one does whatever he wants. you got your beauties you want to show me. i have a big Gatling gun or a mighty lion or a crocodile to show you . does that sound very good? if that sound good to you then you are actually like a ostrich who puts his head in the sand and thinks nobody will see him. The truth may seem harder or may cause problems with your opinions but that is truth. You can delay to face it. But you can never escape it.


im really blanking on what that and a couple of other stuff is meant to mean :/

This thread seems to be about men deciding what is right or wrong for a woman to wear. Whatever happened to free choice? Its not for us to decide what women wear, its for the individual. And really, as long as a woman dresses respectably (i.e. not mini mini skirts or skimpy dresses) in things such as business, formal occasions and politics then there's no reason why what a woman wears should be a barrier to equality.

We'r all humans anyway, other than our sex we'r all wired the same way. There shouldn't even be a need for an equality question.

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quote:
Originally posted by Calforsale
Then why do many muslim countries have shocking rights for women?



tell me how many rules of your religion you follow. if everybody just follows their religion then two third of the worlds problems will be gone.


quote:

Okay now that seriously Saviour, is just a horrible thing to say. That is extremely sexist. You believe that Men are superior by women. That certainly is not true.



Did you read my post entirely. read now again. i did not say that.


quote:

You are most likely like this due to the society you live in (i have heard some baddd stories about women and Bangeladesh).



Now i did not mentioned any country here or any specific cultuaral region. I will not answer those. I will not be able to give a neutral reply if i am angry. But what you said was entirely wrong.

Please try to read books and watch movies of other countries . Because you do not know what are you talking about. If you need book suggestion then pm me.


__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things
are forcing you to
be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

Post last edited by saviour2012 on 03.16.2012, 05:38 AM.

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quote:
Originally posted by captain george

This thread seems to be about men deciding what is right or wrong for a woman to wear. Whatever happened to free choice? Its not for us to decide what women wear, its for the individual.



I am not saying that men should decide what women should wear. I am saying that why women feel like they should wear those particular clothes. why do they feel like that.


__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things
are forcing you to
be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

03.16.2012, 03:43 AM saviour2012 is offline   Profile for saviour2012 Add saviour2012 to your buddy list Send an Email to saviour2012 Homepage of saviour2012
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