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Roarkiller
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Recently there's been a lot of hoo-hah in Singapore about the cost of living (understandably). Stuff like how the price of an apartment has doubled or even tripled in the past ten years, plus 5% inflation, yet gross salaries has barely risen in this same period.

This got me thinking (again) about the problems happening around the world. It's not just the economy, but food shortages, corruption... it's like we're all heading for armageddon.

Unnecesssary needs

I know that different countries have different problems. But I can't help but believe that underneath all these problems, there is but one underlying contributor to all these problems.

Progress.

Yes, I am blaming progress. I don't know if its because of the World Wars or the industrial revolution or globalisation, but suddenly it dawned to me that maybe, just maybe, we are all pushing forward a wee bit too fast for the majority of the world's population (and our planet) to catch up. It seems that somewhere along the road to progress, we have been developing so much technology, so much focus on wealth, so much fighting over democracy or gay rights or press freedom or whatever it is where you are, that we have forgotten the most basic necessities of life.

For example, it seems that, for whatever reason, a house simply NEEDS a television. And a radio. And a telephone. And an oven. And a microwave oven. And a computer. And a car. And a blender. And a juice blender. And five pans of different sizes.

And then we have the personal belongings. We need more than a pair of shoes. More than dozen shirts. More than dozen pants/skirts. More than TWO dozen pairs of socks.

And so on.

I can list a lot more items but you get the general idea. The fact is, we are increasingly living a life of materialistic value, where wearing the same shirt twice in a week is deemed "poor", and using a five-dollar watch is "not stylish".

We are living in a world where, for some reason, what people think of us matters more than our financial state.

We are living in a world where, for some reason, being traditional is the same as being outdated.

We are living in a world where, for some reason, science and wealth is more important than faith and family.

Yes, people. we are living in a world of progress. Progressing towards regression, at least.

Food

I am looking at the map of the world. In the middle of it, I see a huge, HUGE brown patch. I see the same spots of brown in many other places. Some big, some small.

Deserts.

Once when I was a teenager, I asked my Geography teacher, "If deserts cannot be used to grow crops, why are people not using it for housing, factories or some other function instead of where everything is now?"

She never did give me a satisfactory answer.

Logically, reasons are definitely abound. Soft sand makes a bad base to put in building foundations. But technology has advanced enough for this to barely be an issue. Reasons like lack of water and food are invalid with current transportation capabilities, while reasons like accessibility only makes sense in the first few years of the hub's birth.

What does this have to do with food? Simple: the fertile lands capable of growing crops have been all but covered with concrete and asphalt for the sake of growth.

Some "needs" have even less credible reasons. Like that golf course and country club. Or the new swanky mall.

So with that, we have my next complaint: improper land usage.

Salaries

The gripe of all gripes. Why are the rich getting richer, and the poor getting poorer?

Let's look at it from the devil's advocate point of view. The purpose of opening a business is to make a profit. If the person you hired has done well enough to contribute significantly to the company's growth, he or she should be rewarded accordingly. To put it in a different way, in order to retain talent, the well-performing staff should be paid according to his efforts so he or she would not feel that he is being short-changed.

So goes the facts. Now let's look at it from a different point of view.

We'll start with the biggest problem: FAT bonuses. Somewhere in the years leading to the most recent crisis, we started giving out fat paychecks to people in the top rungs for their "contributions" to the company. Yet for all the growth the company has, that admin assistant typing away at the keyboard on level three receives... nothing.

The same problem extends to the owner of the company him/herself. No matter how fast the company is growing, stories of the general worker getting even half the percentage of that growth is so scarce that, if it happens at all, it's actually worthy to be on the front page of the newspaper.

What I am saying is the income gap is caused by nothing as complicated as corruption of global economy, but by the very building blocks of the "standard" company structure itself. It's not the money going to the top, it's the money going to the bottom, or the lack of it. The reward isn't spread fairly.

Yes, it's fine if managers get a bigger share. But at least recognize the efforts of the blue-collar workers as well.


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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

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husky51
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One aspect of our rampant increase in the cost of living that I've always complained about was NOT an increase of salary, but a stabilization of how much stuff costs.

We've developed ways to make things faster and cheaper, to grow bigger crops on the same land, etc, but at the same time the costs, instead of lessening, keep on climbing up.

why?

It seems that the more money we want, the more things cost and the more things cost, the more money we want to be able to afford them, ad infinitum...

where does it end?

example:
say that it costs $1.00 to produce a loaf of bread and a market owner can make a profit by selling that loaf for $1.25. Everyone at this time are making a fair salary. Now if the Wheat producer decides that he wants more money, he raises his price per bushel of grain. This cost is passed on to the consumer when the store owner has to raise his price to, say $1.35 per loaf. The average wage earner now has to make more to pay for this loaf to simply maintain tha same level of his quality of life.

To me, this is a vicious cycle or circle of events

I hope that this makes sense, but I also know that nothing will change. It hasn't for millennia and it won't now.

The preceding views are my own...


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Saddletank
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This doesn't sound like your writing Roar, what article or web page is it from please? I'd like to read more.


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AmtrakDesertWindrider
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Oy, Roar, ya'd hate SoCal with a burning passion, then.

We ripped out our highly viable farms for what? Frikken' houses. EVERYWHERE. And now the area's blighted with crime, foreclosure, and the end results of employers shifting their base overseas (and thus leaving many people jobless).

Ya wanna blame something? Blame unsustainable population growth. Tradition has dictated, for centuries, that exponential growth is needed for humanity's success.

So what we might be seeing is tradition crashing head-on with "progress"...that seems plausible, does it?


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Post last edited by AmtrakDesertWindrider on 04.24.2012, 05:44 PM.

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captain george
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i agree with husky when it comes to things being priced in such a way that makes it difficult to afford anything. The cost of living these days is frighteningly high. Its terrifying looking at the cost of even every day products, like food and clothing, never mind the costs of houses and living, and you can add taxes onto the top of all that. As a young person its even worse, you look out at the world and think to yourself, 'How am i ever going to survive out there?'. You start at the bottom rung of the financial ladder and that ladder seems to keep getting higher and higher at a time when jobs are so scarce and well paid jobs are next to impossible to come by. All this makes what Roar said about what can be described as unnecessary necessity's, extra shoes, shirts etc. just impossible luxury's (yet there are some who prioritise them above every day needs). There's only a handful of jobs out there which pay enough for one person to live comfortably, making it more difficult for people to start families without a double income, and even if they do have a double income there's massive amounts of costs involved and to even have a bit of money left over to spend on the person actually making the money is a rarity in many cases.

In other words, is it too expensive for the average person to live comfortably these days?

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Roarkiller
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
This doesn't sound like your writing Roar, what article or web page is it from please? I'd like to read more.

I... I... I feel so hurt... Y U no believe in meee...

@Amtrak: Oh yea forgot about that one. Considering how I was studying that last year, 'tis shameful of me to forget that.

A module I took in my advanced diploma course was about Sustainable Engineering. It discusses the pros and cons of the business model amongst other things, and one of them was between sustainable but minimal growth versus unsustainable but rapid growth.

I guess it's pretty clear that, due to some odd reasons, the whole world is moving towards a rapid but unsustainable growth.

The solution is tough, because there are three corners to the argument: ecology, economy, and religion (or tradition, if you may). The idea is that these three corners are always in conflict, and thus the best solution is not always the most practical.

Take, for example, oil. By now it's been pounded into our head enough that fossil fuels aren't going to last forever (ecology), yet development and support for alternatives aren't growing as much as it should be because it would mean huge losses for many companies (economy), and especially for the arabs who are used to making their fortune by the sale of oil (tradition), the drop in business is a serious problem if they don't have a backup plan.

And so the cycle continues.


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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

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Mush
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I believed it was you, Roar! I could tell by my irresistible urge to argue over details:

quote:
We are living in a world where, for some reason, science and wealth is more important than faith and family.
Hey, what's wrong with science? (I am getting tired of technology though).

As for using desert for housing... well, Las Vegas isn't exactly a model of a sustainable city. And even without the gambling, it sucks up tons of water and has no real compelling reason to be located where it is. On the other hand, look at where all China's wealth is concentrated - in the cities, on the coast. The sea is their economic connection to most of the rest of the world.

Fighting over press freedom and democracy are not distractions, because without such things there are no checks against the powerful groups that profit from keeping the current social structure in place. Without freedom of speech and human rights, you can't expect a social movement to arise that will benefit anyone but the wealthy and powerful.

Sometimes I am bothered by all the attention devoted to squabbling over minor issues like gay marriage. Why not just give them their freedoms and move on to discussing more important things!

That aside, I think you hit on some important issues and I agree with the sentiment and some of your other points. And I would be the first to join you in declaring golf courses to be a crime against landscapes everywhere.


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husky51
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quote:
Originally posted by Mushka

And I would be the first to join you in declaring golf courses to be a crime against landscapes everywhere.



Yes, I agree about the golf courses. I used to play, long, long ago, but had to give it up because I couldn't afford the greens fees. I didn't need the fancy clothes nor even the golf shoes. I just had fun getting out and trying to whack the ball down the fairway and then into the cup. My longest putt ever was a 35 footer. And walking is almost prohibited these days. They want you to use the golfcarts so as to get you on and off the course faster. At 17 I used to caddy, lugging a full golfbag over 18 holes, sometimes 2 or three times a day. Good exercise.

And like you said about the water, Mushka, can you imagine the amount of water needed to keep the courses green! Farmers in Calif are stressing about about getting alotted enough water for crops and look how much is used on golf courses


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quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
I... I... I feel so hurt... Y U no believe in meee...
I'll take that one right back real fast then so no one sees it. Sorry!

(BTW we can delete all these posts when we've finished talking, right? Right?)

quote:
Take, for example, oil. By now it's been pounded into our head enough that fossil fuels aren't going to last forever (ecology), yet development and support for alternatives aren't growing as much as it should be because it would mean huge losses for many companies (economy).
Having worked in the research and development side of the motor industry for 18 months now I think you'd be surprised how quickly the worlds reliance on the internal combustion engine could be supplanted by electric drive. Its pretty much here already and most definitely will be in 10 years. Of course we still need to power the factories to make the batteries and the trucks and cars and I think before long nuclear power is going to have to fill that gap.


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Wikidkid101
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@Roar, I agree with some of your points but not others, however I think we can put what we are talking about down to these three things:

The Development gap between MEDC's (More Economically developed country) and LEDC's (Less Economically developed countries) as well as within the countries themselves.

The free market (dictated by the MEDC's)

As well as the fact economy will always win over environment and always will for the near future.

At the end of the day it is down to the Economic, social and environmental effects.

LOL!! Who would have thoguht my A level geography would come in handy!!

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Roarkiller
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It's the same point in Engineering. It's a sad life we live.

On the news yesterday is bout the discovery of Mad Cow Disease found on a dairy cow in America leading to a temporary ban of American beef in Taiwan.

One shopkeeper was saying how the price of local (Taiwanese) beef will go up because of the ban, and how the price will have to be pushed to the customers.

So I was wondering: why would the ban on american affect prices on local beef?

Demand.

As demand goes up, for obvious greed-related reasons, the farmers/middlemen somehow believed that it is okay to raise their prices, even going so far as to blame the ban on it.

Seriously? Can someone with background on economics explain how this is even tolerable?

This is why I shun business-related stuff. Money makes people do crazy things I will never be caught dead doing.


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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

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Mush
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There's a couple reasons why it might make sense. The first is if American beef is sold under-priced (perhaps because of subsidies), and Taiwanese farmers have to price to compete but can't sustain a living like that. With American beef gone, they can price as they would like to, so prices go up.

Another reason could be that Taiwan doesn't produce enough beef to feed itself at current levels of demand. Either they can face shortages, or increase prices to reduce demand. Either way not everyone will be able to eat as much beef as they used to, but in the latter case, the people who really want the beef and are willing (and able) to pay for it get to do so.

Another reason might be that Taiwanese farmers need to ramp up their domestic production of beef, which could require short-term expenditures, and the price of beef would go up to include those costs.

There might be other explanations too; I haven't studied economics much, but this is a pretty simple case to explain. It would actually be surprising if the price wasn't affected, unless for some reason the thought of mad cow disease made vegetarianism suddenly more popular.

It's a natural result of the way that free markets allocate resources. There are other ways to do things, with different results, and which way is better depends on what you'd like to achieve. But for cases like this, it's not a bad system.


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From what I was listening to on the local news channel this evening, there was one cow in California with 'mad cow disease', but it was NOT in the beef supply chain and was referred to as an anomaly... (that word reminds me of something about Roar... ) Something that might occur randomly on occasion.

A big thing here in the States is whenever something happens with the oil industry. Any thing that MIGHT be looked at as negative, the Oil speculators immediately start buying up stocks, thereby increasing the price at the pumps. The oil industry is quick to raise their prices, but slow in lowering them...


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Roarkiller
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quote:
Originally posted by husky51
From what I was listening to on the local news channel this evening, there was one cow in California with 'mad cow disease', but it was NOT in the beef supply chain and was referred to as an anomaly... (that word reminds me of something about Roar... ) Something that might occur randomly on occasion.
Right, that's the one. I didn't hear which state it was from, so I just umbrella'd it under America.

quote:
Originally posted by Mushka
Another reason might be that Taiwanese farmers need to ramp up their domestic production of beef, which could require short-term expenditures, and the price of beef would go up to include those costs.
Mm, that's one plausible solution. Except... how do you ramp up production of beef? I mean, you can't just grow cows faster than before; that's like the world of Dr Who.

Increasing price to reduce demand is the worst idea I have heard (not by you, rest assured). If there's demand, price won't matter, and it's a fact that the price is seldom pegged to the cost of producing a product. So let it be sold out and leave it at that. It becomes a rare commodity, yes, but at least the prices aren't ridiculous.

This last argument reminds me a lot about my country's situation with COE allocation. The idea here is that you don't own a car, you're simply given a 10-year period to keep one. Once that period is up, you have to sell it or scrap it. It's the govt's idea of controlling the car population. The car's population will only be allowed to grow by a few percent each year, with a review every few years.

The problem with this is that the price of a COE isn't set; it's done via a bidding exercise, twice a month. So the price of a COE is entirely on the consumer, and naturally, climbs REALLY fast.

This link gives you an idea of how much it costs for the right to own a car, not to actually own it.

Guess where all the money goes to, by the way

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
Having worked in the research and development side of the motor industry for 18 months now I think you'd be surprised how quickly the worlds reliance on the internal combustion engine could be supplanted by electric drive. Its pretty much here already and most definitely will be in 10 years. Of course we still need to power the factories to make the batteries and the trucks and cars and I think before long nuclear power is going to have to fill that gap.
Yeah, I kinda realized that even if you replaced gas, you still have to ramp up power to power the batteries. But at least energy sources to power batteries can be gotten from natural sources like geothermal or wind power (and nuclear, if it comes to that), so it at least offsets the demand a little.

My teacher explained once that demand for oil can be reduced even more by a much simpler method: reducing plastics.

Basically, plastic production using oil is so huge that it it takes up a very significant portion of oil usage. In fact, a large portion of plastic use now can simply be done away with, like tupperware, and replaced with more sustainable raw material like corn husks.

Another big source of oil is much easier to reduce as well, an fortunately, is already fairly accepted: paint. If you look at packagings nowadays, you'll find plenty that says "soy-based inks" or something similar. That's a good sign.


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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

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saviour2012
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Now the thing is everything in this world runs on business. And as there is no surity of profit in business so there is no boundary of profit too.
As these month i had to study economics(grrrrrr) as it is in my curriculam i understood that the basis of a business is profit. so maximizing it, is a general idea. Now everybody knows the rule of demand. if price decreases demand increases and if price increases demand decreases. Now i know it is not that easy. There are two kind of product. necessary goods and luxurious goods. i think we all know what they are. now when we talk about necessary goods the decrease of price does not effect its demand. So to maximize profit we see the increase in food price and also decrease in electronics price for the same. when the transportation was not very desirable most of the things needed to be sold regionally. but international trade made it possible to sell further. For this fact rich countries can afford to waste one third of their food where poors cant even eat. But still this problem could be solved. but dirty business men keep these poor,poor.so that they can derive cheap labour from them. This is the real problem actually, because people are becoming more and more gredy thinking about only themselves. this is how humanity is lost. And this causes war,massacre,opression. Most of rich countries people thought that they were not opressed. But it became visible after wallstreet and london ,france and greece incident. Now this is what nurture is.


Our souls were practically without any sin at our birth. but now in our world we think gambling as a valid work,prostitution as a valid profession. today or tomorrow we will think that stealing is legit profession because he is taking the risk of getting caught.as i am saying this it will sound very bad. but if one judge says the same we will all say allright.

Now this is nurture.
the process we kill our souls and bury our conscience is nurture. Our society is nurturing us this way.

Now globalisation is a bullshit word. it should be said global poor making session. It is invented to make people poor. Now if you think about buying extra pair of shoes, you should be thankful that atleast your money going into the economy.(because at least some of it goes to the poors)

Population growth is problematic but can be solved. But then where can the businessmen get their cheap labour.so they do not want this problem to be solved. they want to sell pricey green electeronics but do not want to solve globalwarming.


No matter what you do how many laws you make you can not make people to walk in the right direction unless they want and that is what we need to do. But we do not have the courage we just tolerate the wrongs until it falls on us. this is a disgraceful way to live.

AND I AM ABSOLUTELY NOT HAPPY WITH IT.

probably not making any sense but it is hightime that we changed.


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Post last edited by saviour2012 on 07.03.2012, 06:43 AM.

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