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saviour2012
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Registration Date: 02.24.12
Location: Dhaka,Bangladesh
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I want to thank roarkiller for finding out some important facts.

quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller

You know, this pretty much hits the nail on the head.

Who decides fashion?

Who decides what is good or bad fashion?



+10 for this. Answer is businessmen[ i do not mean fashion designer or dress shop businessman by that, it is more complicated than that. there is complex web of profit management here. all kind of people xxx content provider,media,strip-club, sex-trafficking business ,sales of contraceptive items are related here]

quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
I will be sidetracking a little bit, because considering how virtually none of you come from the East (and DAMN sure know little or nothing about our culture), a little history lesson is in order.



+1 . they do not read even about their own culture. all they try is to live in present. The good guy who read books they call him a geek or a nerd.

quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
Before and during the Colonial rule period, all non-western countries (namely Europe, and by extension of the forefathers, America) have their own traditional clothing, and fashion.

Fast forward to now, and the only people you can think of wearing traditional garments are the arabs, who are proud of their race and culture by default.

And so I wonder: since when did it become frowned upon, or even unacceptable, to wear traditional garments? Since when did doing so make you the laughing stock of the people around you?

Globalisation. Westernisation. Media. Peer pressure.

I'd even dare say the hammering of white supremacy into our ancestors.

And yet now we have girls wearing shorter and shorter skirts in winter countries. And men donning blazers and ties in the blazing equator.




+100 for this. It is actually the reason of every problem. It is for globalization and media that made a person think that wearing that kind of dress is very stylish.

quote:

Especially when you realize that the capitals of fashion, and the business itself, are also notorious for debauchery.


Right


__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

03.17.2012, 07:52 AM saviour2012 is offline   Profile for saviour2012 Add saviour2012 to your buddy list Send an Email to saviour2012 Homepage of saviour2012
saviour2012
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quote:
Originally posted by Orphic Okapi

You are being silly. Dozens of "clothed cultures" (for lack of a better term) have fallen throughout history. Many "nude cultures" still exist in the twenty-first century. If they are disappearing, it is because of, as Roarkiller says, the influence of Western media. The same media you claim is the source of the problem.




Example needed. I think you do not understand the difference between a tribe and a civilized culture. For starting a culture the discovery of cloth is one of the first things. Now if you read about a culture what you will learn about?
1.Their food
2.Architecture
3.literature and language
4.Their social life
5.Their cloth and wears
6.Their values

if you do not find these in a culture then they are not a culture at all. If they are naked then they are barbaric . Do you want to be barbaric


quote:

If societies fell because of adultery, why is adultery still alive and kicking - especially in some of the wealthiest, most powerful countries in the world? I would even argue there's a positive correlation between a country's wealth and frequency of adultery.



You actually answered the question yourself. The countries you are talking about are just risen it has not even four hundred years since they have been in that position. And these countries are fading i do not understand even if you read those wonderful books how can you not understand it yet. As you are a here i can assume you are a ghibli fan have you never read the interviews of miyazaki[ i mentioned him because he is popular among us if i mentioned someone else then someone could think he does not know that guy]




quote:

Uh, boys do try to be attractive to get women's attention. All the time - both physically and in how they behave. Would you look at a guy lifting weights in a gym and think, "Gee, that guy really doesn't respect himself at all"?



WRONG .everybody goes to gym. Because to be fit you have to exercise. You can work better and it is scientific. On the other hand the attitude of girls is unnatural . you do not see that in earlier ages and cultures. It is a new trend. And totally unscientific too.
Becoming stronger is scientific , Becoming more beautiful is Scientific .Showing them is not.

quote:

why did wearing a full-body garment (usually black) become traditional in so many hot climates?



it is because of advancement of science. All the people do this because nowadays most of the offices are centrally air conditioned. so it is not hot there.


__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

Post last edited by saviour2012 on 03.17.2012, 09:15 AM.

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saviour2012
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quote:
Originally posted by Kazegami
Saviour, you say you don't want people to use opinions to argue with you, well, too bad. This entire topic is a matter of opinion. You think one thing, other people think other things, there isn't a fact in sight. That's why it's up for debate.



Now you are more than welcome to say your opinion. That is what discussion is about . But you can not say i am wrong if you do not have any proof or facts. you have to say you are right but i like it that way. If you[ i do not mean you kajegami] want to prove me wrong then follow Saddletank and Orphic Okapi .


__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

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Calforsale
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Hmm i think what you are saying is not freedom but just freedom of speech. You are not living in a free society if you cannot go against the norms and values of society.

Yes we cant meet everyone, bur doesnt mean we should barely meet anyone. If people decide to remarry that only affects them and their family, not others. My parents are divorced and i don't think i'm crazy or abnormal.

But saviour, even if someone in your oppinion is treating themselves as an object, doesn't give you the right to treat them as an object. Even if someone walked around in a street, naked, that doesn't give othershtge right to harras or sexually assualt them.

Just because one culture is more simple than most doesn't mean it is not a culture at all!

I don't think you understood the point of men going to the gym. Many men go to the gym to get a more muscular and toned body to look attractive.


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saviour2012
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quote:
Originally posted by Calforsale
You are not living in a free society if you cannot go against the norms and values of society.



Then there will be chaos.The rules are for stability

quote:
Originally posted by Calforsale
My parents are divorced and i don't think i'm crazy or abnormal.



i am very very sorry to hear that.Now tell me are you happy about it. Would not you liked if they were not divorced?
My parent almost got divorced [ it is not because of the facts i mentioned earlier, it is because they can not agree with some points not very serious issue] But i was able to stop that. it was 4 years ago. now i think we are one of the most happy families. But it would not be possible if i lived in any western countries . Because then i would not be able to make them understand about the values of family and children. just because i would not know them then.


quote:
Originally posted by Calforsale
But saviour, even if someone in your oppinion is treating themselves as an object, doesn't give you the right to treat them as an object. Even if someone walked around in a street, naked, that doesn't give othershtge right to harras or sexually assualt them.



i mean you want to say that we will not get exited even if girls wear revealingly . that is not possible . it is totally unscientific. about harassing someone is totally dependent on that particular person but getting exited is common.


__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

03.17.2012, 09:40 AM saviour2012 is offline   Profile for saviour2012 Add saviour2012 to your buddy list Send an Email to saviour2012 Homepage of saviour2012
Calforsale
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Whoops i shouldve been more clear. Peopke shouldnt steal or kill, but i think its okay to do things against the norms of society.

Oh thank you thats quite kind, but i am honestly fine with my parens are divorced, its still a family to me. :-)

Oh its perfectly fine to have those feelings, but its not okay to act upon thosr feelings. I mean like even if a woman has her clevage showing people shouldnt stare at that area for a long time just because they can.

Nearly 1am here! Time for me to go to bed.


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Saddletank
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quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012 Now tell me does the scenario i described up sound very good?
All I read was something not relevant to the discussion. You seem to be talking about the natural urges of our species to seek a mate transformed by the means available in modern society. Your scenario is silly since the alternative is to not seek a mate or the approving attentions of the opposite gender, something that is wired into us and is impossible for us to not do.

Yes, lots of people marry then divorce, or commit adultery. Its not good but its still a fact. I don't think it bears on gender equality though.

quote:
Now when we talk about women equality. Women often say that they do not want to be harassed. I really want that to happen. It makes me sick when i hear something like that. But it is the women who makes this difficult for us .
There you go again. This is the same line of thinking that says women in revealing clothes are asking to be raped. That is so totally incorrect and derogatory against women. The rapists are the ones doing wrong. A man harassing a revealingly clad woman is doing wrong. A woman harassing a revealingly clad woman is doing wrong. The law says so. Our basic sensibilities say so.

quote:
I want to beg to the women please will you stop posing nakedly in front of camera ?
Pornography is not the same as fashion and dressing to appeal to the opposite gender. You seem way off with your extremes of examples here. I don't have the facts at hand but there is a school of psycological thought that states that pornography is actually beneficial to society because people can safely view it and live out their fantasies in the privacy of their own homes and so do not go out and commit criminal acts against others in pusuit of their sexual needs. I'm not sure I agree with that theory but it is a theory and so there can be claims to justify the porn industry.

On the other hand I also support those who do lobby for the banning of objectivisation of women in, say, advertising. I used to work in London and the underground railway system was covered in advertisements degrading women, usually adverts for underwear and so on. At least that era of exploitation of women is now over, thank you very much.

quote:
You show you beauty in the television and media , make us excited then when we get close to you or think bad things about you. You say us pervert minded. That is not fair at all.
Incorrect. First, do not equate models on television and in the media with different individuals in the street. Each person is their own self and has their own rights. The male aroused by an erotic advertisement (which are actually much more stringently controlled now, at least in Britain) still has a duty to control his urges, as any respectable and decent person will.

You're still back in the 'women dressed sexily deserve to be raped' issue. You have to drop that and move on, our laws now very rightly give women the full protection against any such claims. Equality reached and covered this issue years ago.

If you can't control your urges, you are at fault. How more simply does it need to be stated?

BTW, I'm using 'you' here as a means of expressing my argument and I am not directing that at any individual here.

============

Moving on to the discussion about the evil corporations that control our minds and dictate to us what we wear and how we dress… well, welcome to civilisation! Or at least welcome to western capitalism! I do not agree with you that big businesses are necessarily bad or act out of dubious motives in any way shape or form, unless you include a need to make profits dubious.

However our western society has been this way for at least 1300 years. The concept of the display of goods, wealth, jewellery and status came about towards the end of the dark ages around 600-700 AD in Britain when there arose among the small tribes of our nation various leaders based firstly on martial prowess and secondly on wealth gained through the power that owning farmland granted them. These warrior lords grew more powerful and showed off their status with ceremonial weapons, armour and clothing. From that time to this, such physical signs have always been used by western cultures to show status. It can be an expensive party dress or silk suit, or it can be a new car, TV, iPhone or iPad, but the society we have is built on over a millennium of this process and it is now impossible to change (barring some global catastrophe).

This does not make it bad or wrong, it merely makes it one way for a society to function.

Some of the most obscene and gross displays of consumerism on the planet are to be found among the rich sheikhs of the Arab Gulf States, men who practice a Moslem faith yet who are absurdly enslaved by consumerism.

Again, where are we going here when talking about equality? Why are we even discussing this and not women's working conditions or job opportunities?

============

Moving on to traditional dress, western culture does not have one because it has been in a state of more rapidly increasing change for a millennium. Our current fashions for males (the lounge suit with its lapels and sometimes double-breasted closure) are residual military uniforms that changed from around the 1670s through to the late 19th century.

The dress for women is ancient, the oldest and most simple shift-like garment with an opening for the head and a belted waist, going back thousands of years. Its current forms are a result of modern fabrics, modern tastes, modern dye techniques and artistic style. That a beautiful and expensive dress can make a woman feel good and even empower her is fair and right.

Once more, where is the subject of gender equality in this exchange? I'm confused.

============

Lastly, going back to primitive cultures that do not wear clothes, your assertion that these are merely savages is wholly false. This was the assumption missionaries made in the 1500s, you're half a millennium out of date. A measure of a society being cultured and civilised is nothing to do with going naked. Academics who study the psychology of cultures tell us that what is required for a culture to be recognised as such are language, writing and art. Even simple African tribes have beautiful art styles, jewellery and a rich verbal culture of stories and self-identity and tradition. That is what makes culture, not clothes.

You can go to any naturist holiday camp in Europe in the summer and see hundreds of naked people contentedly enjoying the company of each other without a trace of shame. The men are not sporting erections and going around harassing the women. Nudity is a normal state of existence for homo-sapiens.


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Post last edited by Saddletank on 03.17.2012, 10:59 AM.

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saviour2012
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
[quote] you got your beauties you want to show me. i have a big Gatling gun or a mighty lion or a crocodile to show you . does that sound very good?
You will need to take care with your examples, since waving a gun at people or bringing out a dangerous animal in pubic are all acts outside the law. If a person wears a minidress or a man goes without his shirt, those are both quite legal, therefore your examples need to include acts which are legal, and at that point your argument collapses as your point is lost.



No it is not. I think you do not know where laws come from
1.From religious belief
2.rule of social culture
3.from quote of very important personalities
4.Decision of a judgement in court
5.rules made by parliament
6.unwritten rules of nature

so when you say that waving a gun or bringing dangerous animals are illegal i can not agree with you. Now i do not like dogs, i am actually frightened about them. So they are scary to me. Now can i say that bringing dogs in public is illegal? No , i cant. Because it is not scary to most of the people. So when a person goes revealingly in public places you can not say it is legal. Because most of the people are annoyed by that. The Laws that are made by human are not universal . They can be changed and are changing. Like gambling and prostitution is illegal in many countries but it is legal in others.


quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
All the cultures that habitually go unclothed are very ancient cultures - some African tribes, some Amazonian tribes, some Polynesians... Cultures that would be far more widespread on the earth if Christian missionaries and Christian colonial powers had not exploited and destroyed them. The majority of people on this planet live in the medium to high northern latitudes where textile coverings are simply useful in order to keep warm; it is also these cultures who, a few hundred years ago, took their Christian values to the simpler cultures in the tropics and... destroyed them, or implanted their own beliefs and practices.

Had this not happened a far larger percentage of the earth's population would practice nudity as a simple fact of social normality.

the issue is that humans can and do live in soicieties fully naked, and without shame or guilt. The presence of shame and embarrasment appears to be a construct of those societies that stem from strong religious backgrounds - Christian and Moslem - where it is a teaching that clothing the body is correct and going unclothed is shameful.



I do not understand why everybody wants to go backwards in time. It feels to me that you want to live like human but act like animal.If you really think barbaric-ism is good. Then throw your computer,mobile and go to the jungle. most of you do not understand the reason of human existence. It is not because humans are in earth to live like animals but because to live a social life. As the time goes by we have to better ourselves. in prehistoric times it was possible to marry your own sister but now is it? Or do you want to marry your sister , if not then why are you pointing to past cultures.Please will you read about the history of human revolution . you need to know before posting.

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
quote:
posted by husky51
I love and cherish all my women friends, lovers and acquaintances with few exceptions. I have met many women that do not deserve my respect for anything other than the fact that they are women. I have met these women usually in the course of my working as a security officer for over 40 years, both full and part time. These gals would give a guy a run for his money in meanness, crudity, cruelty and deadliness. I have actuality met these women, not just read about them.



quote:
Husky is right. Do you respect a thief or a gangster or a thug. If you do not then why are you saying us that we should respect a prostitute. We do not know who you are in public now if you dress like a whore then you should not expect respect.
WHOA! Just wait a minute! So now you are making the huge and insulting leap that because a woman dresses sexily that makes her as bad as a whore? Holy crap, you do have problems!

Sure, a prostitute is a person who is in trouble and probably has many issues, fears and hardships, but at least she is NOT a thief or gangster or thug, those are people who hurt and commit crimes against others; a prostitute merely hurts her(or him)self. Yes, male prostitues. This is not just about women remember? Its about equality of the sexes.



quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
You seem to be heading seriously off track here. We are talking about the equality of the sexes, not about the possible reasons that cause females to become pornstars or prostitutes and who are terrible people whom we should pour scorn on (the one does not follow from the other anyway).



total contradiction

And as for judging a women who dresses sexily as whore , how will we know she is not a whore if she dresses like them.


quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
I agree that fewer males do compared to females, but the male industry is still a vast business.



i do not know what you mean by vast business. it is like 400 million to 65 billion. anyone got a calculator, got it. ....... it is 162 to 1. Yes that is no special case at all!!!!

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
quote:
posted by saviour2012
Now to all girls i want to say is. Beauty is only for reproductive purpose. Flowers are given their colors so that it can be pollinated. Frogs can sing so that he can attract someone . Men and women are given their beauties for the same reason so that our kind human-kind do not perish from earth. It has nothing to do with equality. So these things should be kept inside bedrooms . The fast the girls understands that the faster they will get equality. Girls You have to respect yourself.


How does one attract a mate from inside a bedroom? A flower won't be pollenated if it covers itself with a cardboard box and frogs won't attract mates if they never sing.



seriously Saddletank. Do someone does sex in road? as for attracting mate. please read how it was done previously.


quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
As I said above, males are attracted to the female form and its a valid means to display that form for that purpose. A girl might not even be seeking a mate, but the act of putting on a sensual appearance in order to, say, go out clubbing, gives a girl a happy buzz, a high and a fun mood. I've met dozens of girls in such situations both in my youth and later life and both the female and male enjoy it. Why? Because its a hard-wired part of our genes.

A female doing this is not to be despised for it and she must not be treated unequally for it.



At last you are coming to the point. Yes that is the reason for everything. It is having fun. Have so much fun and after a while you will see chaos everywhere. No family, no rules , no society. Oh my! it sounds wonderful.

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
tell me how many rules of your religion you follow. if everybody just follows their religion then two third of the worlds problems will be gone.


This both made me smile and made me rather sad.

The problem with religion is that humans interpret it. Both the Bible and the Qu'ran have beautiful teachings, which if everyone exactly understood them and universally followed them, would, I agree, do a great deal of good in the world. Perhaps even give us heaven on earth.

However, people do not. They misinterpret, they misunderstand, they wilfuly twist things to their own evil ends.

Two thousand years of Christianity and 1400 years of Moslem faith have resulted in more humans dying than for any other cause.

Religion doesn't work. Except for a small minority, or rather, several small minorities who each interpret things different ways.



You are totally wrong here. Religions do work . They work better than anything. But problem occurs when men becomes greedy.

You want to make more money? be dishonest

Want to sleep with another girl but do not want to feed her? go to prostitutes

Do not like your husband? Cheat him

These are the shortcuts of life. Now these shortcuts can give you pleasure for some time. But ultimately these rotten the foundation of a healthy society. So we have to try to stop those. Now this whole thread is about women equality, now why men like me shouting about these because they can not implement that without our help. But we are not helpful enough so they become frustrated and wear those dresses thinking themselves that , that is their freedom ,that is their right. And by doing that they are actually losing the main game.


__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

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Saddletank
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quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012

No it is not. I think you do not know where laws come from
1.From religious belief
2.rule of social culture
3.from quote of very important personalities
4.Decision of a judgement in court
5.rules made by parliament
6.unwritten rules of nature

so when you say that waving a gun or bringing dangerous animals are illegal i can not agree with you. Now i do not like dogs, i am actually frightened about them. So they are scary to me. Now can i say that bringing dogs in public is illegal?
I don't agree with (3) unless you mean the declarations of monarchs prior to our monarchy becoming constitutional. I know exactly where the laws of my nation stem from and the process that refines them. (6) I do not accept as being a part of our statute. Its a part of our society but its not our law.

You didn't mention dogs. You mentiond guns, alligators and lions, which it is illegal to have on the streets in Britain. Dogs as you well know are fully lawful as long as they do not bite people or defecate in public places.

You're squirming now and shifting your standpoint. That's a certain sign that you've lost the argument.

quote:
gambling and prostitution is illegal in many countries but it is legal in others.
True. Your point? Each sovereign nation has its own laws. Where is this dealing with gender equality?

quote:
I do not understand why everybody wants to go backwards in time. It feels to me that you want to live like human but act like animal.If you really think barbaric-ism is good. Then throw your computer,mobile and go to the jungle.
I am not suggesting this. You misunderstand the points being made. You stated your belief that clothing is needed for human culture to exist. People in this thread have proved to you that that is not true. Cultures TODAY, not in ancient times, go naked and the males do not harass the females, therefore sexual harrassment due to revealing clothing or even nudity is a societal construct, not an inherent weakness of the species.

quote:
Please will you read about the history of human revolution . you need to know before posting.
I think you meant evolution and thank you for the lesson, but I know more than enough about history and social change and religion in my more than 50 years on this planet to feel qualified to offer my opinions in this discussion.

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
You seem to be heading seriously off track here. We are talking about the equality of the sexes, not about the possible reasons that cause females to become pornstars or prostitutes and who are terrible people whom we should pour scorn on (the one does not follow from the other anyway).

quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012 total contradiction
Explain please? Actually, no, don't bother. I'm getting bored already with this discussion.

quote:
And as for judging a women who dresses sexily as whore , how will we know she is not a whore if she dresses like them.
People in this discussion are not saying women dress like whores. Only you are saying that, only you seem to struggle distinguishing between a girl who dresses up sexily for a night out clubbing with her friends and a prostitute.

I am able to easily tell the difference. Its not about what they wear its about how they behave.

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
I agree that fewer males do compared to females, but the male industry is still a vast business.

quote:
i do not know what you mean by vast business. it is like 400 million to 65 billion. anyone got a calculator, got it. ....... it is 162 to 1. Yes that is no special case at all!!!!
What is this figure of 400 million and where did you get it please? Why compare a number to the total human population on earth to arrive at a basis of whether it is significant? I'm trying to follow your point here... help me out please... are you denying the existence of the male porn industry?

While I have already agreed that females in pornography and related industries outnumber males, the sheer size of the male porn industry is not a 'special case'. Millions of women and homosexual males buy into this industry on an industrial scale. Your 'evil companies' sell mens bodies for the gratification of women and homosexual men all over the world and make a pretty penny out of it, thank you very much. Special case my arse.

You cannot enter a discussion and then disallow those debating with you to establish facts that you say are not relevant. If they're facts, they're facts and the male porn industry is a very big fact. Sorry that it dents your world.

So now that we have established that it exists, you need to answer my point please, and stop arguing sematics.

quote:
How does one attract a mate from inside a bedroom? A flower won't be pollenated if it covers itself with a cardboard box and frogs won't attract mates if they never sing.



quote:
seriously Saddletank. Do someone does sex in road?
Some people do, yes. I've seen them do it. Well it was in a car at the side of the road actually, and the other time it was in full view on a beach, but there you go...

But that is not the point we're discussing as I think you know but just in case its gettng too complicated for you I'll clarify it again so there can't be any misunderstanding this time.

1) You said women in revealing clothing in public is wrong and they deserve to be treated as whores. Raped, hated, harassed, etc, etc. That was your point and has been your point throughout this discussion.
2) Kazegami said that dressing sexily is a natural state for females as it makes them feel good and attracts males; things that girls enjoy doing. Kazegami BTW lives in the same western European nation as I do so I understand her viewpoint exactly. She made the comparison with flowers blooming to be pollenated.
3) You then made the remark that women should only attract males (your exact words, not have sex, mind you, just attract males) in the bedroom.
4) I made the point that a flower does not get pollinated by being hidden or a frog mate by remaining silent.

Are you following the argument yet?

You're saying 'no sexual display in public please for the purpose of attracting a mate, do it in the bedroom' and I jokingly rejoined 'flowers don't get pollinated inside boxes'. The point being that girls won't meet males if they never go out and they enjoy going out dressed in a manner that achieves that aim.

Understand now?

Of course if you think arranged marriages is the way to go ... well I'm not even going to discuss that medieval outrage with you.

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
As I said above, males are attracted to the female form and its a valid means to display that form for that purpose. A girl might not even be seeking a mate, but the act of putting on a sensual appearance in order to, say, go out clubbing, gives a girl a happy buzz, a high and a fun mood. I've met dozens of girls in such situations both in my youth and later life and both the female and male enjoy it. Why? Because its a hard-wired part of our genes.

A female doing this is not to be despised for it and she must not be treated unequally for it.

quote:
At last you are coming to the point. Yes that is the reason for everything. It is having fun. Have so much fun and after a while you will see chaos everywhere. No family, no rules , no society. Oh my! it sounds wonderful.
We've been having fun for a thousand years or more. Society doesn't seem to be collapsing yet. Society has its problems, I agre, but many can be laid before the doors of other causes.

Moslem countries have equally corrupt societies so I don't think boob tubes are quite the evil instruments of cultural dysfunction that you are suggesting.

By the way, small piece of advice for you. When I begin getting flippant it means I'm running out of patience and am likely to no longer reply to your posts. I might even get rude. Don't take this personally but I don't believe in wasting my time with hateful mysogynists.

quote:
You are totally wrong here. Religions do work . They work better than anything. But problem occurs when men becomes greedy.
You don't agree with the fact that more humans have been put to death as a result of religious wars and hate over the centuries than by any other single cause?

*sigh* We're going round in circles. I already agreed with you that religion should be beautiful. And believe me, I know, I was a committed Christian and a member of an evangelical church for over ten years.

However it is not.

Men are weak and corrupt and in the name of religion commit terrible crimes. They do all the things you listed - make money dishonestly, sleep with prostitutes, cheat on their wives (interesting there that you wrote 'husbands' eh? Do you not think men cheat on their wives, hm?). I'll go further than that, and include mass rape, torture, murder, burning at the stake, a pogrom here and there... All these crimes have been committed by religious leaders, all of them corrupted by power granted to them by their religion and Church. You should read a few books on the Catholic church. May I suggest you start on the chapter titled "Inquisition" and then move on to those headed "Crusades" and "Dissolution of the Monasteries".


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Post last edited by Saddletank on 03.17.2012, 12:24 PM.

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Roarkiller
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quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank You are missing the point, equality does not mean urinals for women and tampons for men, or penises for women and breasts for men. You're being silly.

Equality means being treated equally in societal matters such as salaries, job opportunities, and all other areas where men and women can and should be treated equally.

In those areas equality can and should happen.
You'd be surprised how many women actually expect these things as well. Which is why I brought up the point.

TOTAL equality is impossible because of my stated reasons, which is what a small group of women actually want (sadly).

Fortunately, as I believe everyone here agrees, what should happen is SELECT equality, in areas where merit should prevail, not gender. And so we can safely ignore this.

The problem, however, comes in dress sense, which is the current topic, and is very hotly debated about even in the real world right now.

Problem: Women want the freedom to wear whatever they so choose, while at the same time, be protected from hot-blooded males.

The logic against this argument is simple enough to understand. Men are hot-blooded by nature, and seeing skin gets the blood pumping. "No smoke without fire" is the right statement here; you cannot expect to not attract attention when you're wearing skimpy clothes.

So now we get to the finer details.

quote:
All the cultures that habitually go unclothed are very ancient cultures - some African tribes, some Amazonian tribes, some Polynesians... Cultures that would be far more widespread on the earth if Christian missionaries and Christian colonial powers had not exploited and destroyed them. The majority of people on this planet live in the medium to high northern latitudes where textile coverings are simply useful in order to keep warm; it is also these cultures who, a few hundred years ago, took their Christian values to the simpler cultures in the tropics and... destroyed them, or implanted their own beliefs and practices.

Had this not happened a far larger percentage of the earth's population would practice nudity as a simple fact of social normality.


Now this is a very flawed argument to begin with. Human beings are the only know creatures to be able to use their head in such sophistry, to create culture an fashion and technology.

In short, we advance. We improve.

To say that it is okay to practice the ways of old is flawed simply because current society norms reject an equal, if not larger, amount of old customs.

If it is okay to be nude now because our ancestors did it, then it should be equally okay to marry your mother and cannibalise your dead enemy.

But we don't.

We can argue that in-breeding will lead to complications in the future. But this is a select scenario: cannibalism, an extremely taboo act, has what complications? None. We cannot say it is 'dirty meat' or that it has bacteria, because cooking kills that argument. You cannot argue that not all bacteria is killed in cooking, because other meat contains the same properties (pork is one famous example). And you cannot argue that we cannot eat the same species, because it happens in the wild, and you used that same argument to allow nudity "beautifully displayed in the wild, of animals and flowers". You can't even argue that it's reducing the population because we're a bloated enough species as it is, and no known predators to boot.

So why is cannibalism taboo? Why is it illegal? Social norms? Yeah, how convenient that excuse is.

The fact is, I have to agree with saviour on his barbarism argument: not so much about the ways of old, but it's dictionary meaning.

To be barbaric is to be uncivilised.

Drop by any pub or disco on a saturday night on you'll see people downing alcohol like water. Yes, you can control your intake, but being drunk is a very real problem. When you are drunk, you don't think straight. A functional alcoholic is not only rare, they have a bigger medical problem than normal alcoholics.

And yet drinking is legal, and even encouraged as a form of "socialising". I never did understand how intoxicating yourself is a good thing.

So we have these two examples. A banned taboo with seemingly no negative consequences at all, and an accepted norm that has obvious implications.

The latter, in my opinion, can border on barbaric. Partying can go so far beyond control that it can be officially classified as barbaric. Pure, uncivilised behaviour.

Sidetracking too much, so back to the current topic. Dressing.

Why is skimpy clothing accepted? Fashion? To look good? You can't look good in a long skirt? And nudity. Seriously, what's the point? The same way footwear were invented to protect out feet, clothes were invented to protect us from the elements. The only "nude" cultures mentioned before do so only because of their climate: hot and humid. I repeat: it's not fashion. It's logic.

They have a reason. We don't. Those naturalist are, to me, off their rockers. By all means, do so if you wish, but it still makes no sense to me.

So skimpy clothing. I'm sorry girls, but if skimpy clothing is your way of snagging guys, then what's with wanting guys to see your inner beauty? If guys can impress with their PhDs, why not you girls?

And so linking to the main topic. Girls dress to attract. If you are dressing to attract, you're not dressing for business. Any employer will tell you that revealing clothes is one of the sure-fire ways of not getting hired; in fact, it's why we have formal wear in the first place. The original reason for it may be different, but the reason now is clear: we want workers, not whores. Equality be damned, first impression matters, and that first impression was bad.

Hence we go to the root of the problem: freedom. There;s no such thing as total freedom, rules are NEEDED for society to function. So no, there's no such thing as free will. There's free choice, as in you are free to choose, but it doesn't mean you made the right choice, or a good choice.

Skimpy clothing is just plain bad because no matter how you argue it, no matter how idealistic you want the world to be, men will always be animals. You cannot argue that it is their onus to keep off if you are dressed in a sexually attractive manner. Yeah it makes you feel good an confident and all, but sorry girls, guys don't see it that way.

We're misunderstanding? Well that sucks, because that's how we're wired.

Wanting guys to bear the onus is inequality in itself, because it's saying that women can dress as provocatively as they want, sex themselves up as much as they want, yet want all the blame to fall on the guy.

Please, stop the hypocrisy.

I've argued this before, but here's a repeat: there is a reason why police advises us to not flaunt our wealth in public. It attracts thieves. Yes, legally they are to blame, go to jail and you don't, but why did you flaunt your wealth so much in the first place? Because it makes you feel confident? Look where that got you.

Argue this last point above with a policeman and get back to me with the results, because this is a PERFECTLY parallel case with clothing and sexual harrassment.

quote:
Oh, BTW Roar, internet etiquette - too many upper case words and people can get the idea you're shouting and being overly aggressive

I AM NOT BEING OVERLY AGGRESSIVE I AM BEING ASSERTIVE AND YOU CANNOT STOP MEEEEEEE!!!!!!



But really though, I just hate typing in the bold/italics, so sue me. And netiquettes is oh-so-sensitive, I don't even know what is what half the time anymore :\


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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

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Orphic Okapi
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I do enjoy arguing, but sorry, this guy's nuts.



When you start calling people barbarians because they don't wear clothes, I give up on ever hoping to reach you.


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Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 03.17.2012, 01:45 PM.

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husky51
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

roarkiller quote:

"I AM NOT BEING OVERLY AGGRESSIVE I AM BEING ASSERTIVE AND YOU CANNOT STOP MEEEEEEE!!!!!!

"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
cute, roar....

lol

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
BTW: I'm done with this topic and argument. It keeps going round and round.

Thank you for the various posts, some I agreed with and some I did not agree with...


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Post last edited by husky51 on 03.17.2012, 01:51 PM.

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saviour2012
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Now saddletank before posting will you please read it with attention. Did you not see my question in the top.

I am thinking that do you really do not understand or do not want to understand. Because if you agree with me then the belief you held or the definition of yourself in you will bulldozed. i can understand that, when a person hears something that he did before and had fun is illegal he will not try to understand the causes.


quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
That is so totally incorrect and derogatory against women. The rapists are the ones doing wrong. A man harassing a revealingly clad woman is doing wrong. A woman harassing a revealingly clad woman is doing wrong. The law says so. Our basic sensibilities say so.



Then why are you saying when we say our basic sensibilities say that to wear a cloth which is revealing is inappropriate. Why then you bubble about freedom and right.

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
Pornography is not the same as fashion and dressing to appeal to the opposite gender. You seem way off with your extremes of examples here. I don't have the facts at hand but there is a school of psycological thought that states that pornography is actually beneficial to society because people can safely view it and live out their fantasies in the privacy of their own homes and so do not go out and commit criminal acts against others in pusuit of their sexual needs. I'm not sure I agree with that theory but it is a theory and so there can be claims to justify the porn industry.



I think you are out of your mind. It is the porn industry and media that is constantly pushing men to its limit.

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
Moving on to the discussion about the evil corporations that control our minds and dictate to us what we wear and how we dress… well, welcome to civilisation! Or at least welcome to western capitalism! I do not agree with you that big businesses are necessarily bad or act out of dubious motives in any way shape or form, unless you include a need to make profits dubious.

However our western society has been this way for at least 1300 years.



It does not matter how many years that has been going on. What matters is if that is right or wrong. The things that do not bring good to society that has to be stopped. It is never too late.

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
Lastly, going back to primitive cultures that do not wear clothes, your assertion that these are merely savages is wholly false. This was the assumption missionaries made in the 1500s, you're half a millennium out of date. A measure of a society being cultured and civilised is nothing to do with going naked. Academics who study the psychology of cultures tell us that what is required for a culture to be recognised as such are language, writing and art. Even simple African tribes have beautiful art styles, jewellery and a rich verbal culture of stories and self-identity and tradition. That is what makes culture, not clothes.

You can go to any naturist holiday camp in Europe in the summer and see hundreds of naked people contentedly enjoying the company of each other without a trace of shame. The men are not sporting erections and going around harassing the women. Nudity is a normal state of existence for homo-sapiens.



we have a big disagreement here. I think you are forgetting one thing, one of the basic things that men discovered even before literature, architecture, even jewelery was cloth. How can you forget that. Do you not remember from the history that first men used to cover themselves with leaf , then by the leather of the beasts they hunted. It was before the invention of literature. You can see that by cave-art.

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
I don't agree with (3) unless you mean the declarations of monarchs prior to our monarchy becoming constitutional. I know exactly where the laws of my nation stem from and the process that refines them. (6) I do not accept as being a part of our statute. Its a part of our society but its not our law.



it is from your own country man.

link 1
link2
link3

And i did not said those are laws . i said laws come from those sources.

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
Dogs as you well know are fully lawful as long as they do not bite people or defecate in public places.



('') you got the point. See you said they are not legal if they bite. Didn't you ? So i said that wearings can sometime bite the society the people around.


quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
gambling and prostitution is illegal in many countries but it is legal in others.



quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
True. Your point? Each sovereign nation has its own laws. Where is this dealing with gender equality?



quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
If a person wears a minidress or a man goes without his shirt, those are both quite legal



i was pointing to this. Sometimes wearing something like that can be prohibited in some countries.[ i mean can be illegal]


quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
I am not suggesting this. You misunderstand the points being made. You stated your belief that clothing is needed for human culture to exist. People in this thread have proved to you that that is not true.



Who? if anyone can prove that cloths were invented after literature or jewelery then i will apologize to everybody.

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
Cultures TODAY, not in ancient times, go naked and the males do not harass the females



Then the problem is solved. So why are women complaining about it.

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
I think you meant evolution and thank you for the lesson, but I know more than enough about history and social change and religion in my more than 50 years on this planet to feel qualified to offer my opinions in this discussion.



yeah . r and e are adjacent is keyboard. That is good to know there is another experienced person here beside husky.

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
Explain please? Actually, no, don't bother. I'm getting bored already with this discussion.



you said this
"You seem to be heading seriously off track here. We are talking about the equality of the sexes, not about the possible reasons that cause females to become pornstars or prostitutes and who are terrible people whom we should pour scorn on"

and
also this

"a prostitute is a person who is in trouble and probably has many issues, fears and hardships, but at least she is NOT a thief or gangster or thug, those are people who hurt and commit crimes against others; a prostitute merely hurts her(or him)self."

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
People in this discussion are not saying women dress like whores. Only you are saying that, only you seem to struggle distinguishing between a girl who dresses up sexily for a night out clubbing with her friends and a prostitute.

I am able to easily tell the difference. Its not about what they wear its about how they behave



about behavior a whore can also get on a bus when she is going somewhere. And in a bus can you really see the behavior. There you can see only looks.

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
What is this figure of 400 million and where did you get it please? Why compare a number to the total human population on earth to arrive at a basis of whether it is significant? I'm trying to follow your point here... help me out please... are you denying the existence of the male porn industry?



It is the business that is done in both of those area. I mean the money they make per year. I am saying the male prostitution you are talking about is so small that it does not count. Female prostitution is in almost every country[ even in mine]. But male is in how many? that is surely a special case

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
Some people do, yes. I've seen them do it. Well it was in a car at the side of the road actually, and the other time it was in full view on a beach, but there you go...



And that is very good . Is not it?


quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
You said women in revealing clothing in public is wrong and they deserve to be treated as whores. Raped, hated, harassed, etc, etc. That was your point and has been your point throughout this discussion.



Where? when?
give a quote of mine please

All i am saying dresscode is for everyone. You have to follow it. There is more important issues than dresscode that we have to do now. i am suggesting the women to follow dresscode now . First get the more important rights. After having those rights . it will be easier to think about dresscodes and about its consequences. Its righteousness or wrongness . when they get those rights they will not even bother about dress or looking sexy.

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
You then made the remark that women should only attract males (your exact words, not have sex, mind you, just attract males) in the bedroom.



Do you really want me to say the scientific terms here. When did i say they can not do that. I said you need to be attracted to do that. And so to do sex and have children you can show your beauties. And after that what is the need.

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
well I'm not even going to discuss that medieval outrage with you.



because you want to have fun

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
We've been having fun for a thousand years or more. Society doesn't seem to be collapsing yet.



what kind of. if you are referring to dancing in clubs[ i am not referring dancing at all] then i have to say you did not. just read your culture.

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
Don't take this personally but I don't believe in wasting my time with hateful mysogynists.



are you referring to me. then give example one of my quote that is hateful to general women

quote:
Originally posted by Saddletank
Men are weak and corrupt and in the name of religion commit terrible crimes. They do all the things you listed - make money dishonestly, sleep with prostitutes, cheat on their wives (interesting there that you wrote 'husbands' eh? Do you not think men cheat on their wives, hm?). I'll go further than that, and include mass rape, torture, murder, burning at the stake, a pogrom here and there... All these crimes have been committed by religious leaders, all of them corrupted by power granted to them by their religion and Church. You should read a few books on the Catholic church. May I suggest you start on the chapter titled "Inquisition" and then move on to those headed "Crusades" and "Dissolution of the Monasteries".



i think i answered that when i said problem occurs when men get greedy. now if you are insulting your religion then do so. if i insult religion then everyone will say i am a racist. i read those books . but thanks for suggesting others here may become interested. it is very good to read those books.


__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

Post last edited by saviour2012 on 03.17.2012, 04:20 PM.

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Wikidkid101
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quote:
Originally posted by husky51
----------------------------------------------------------------------

roarkiller quote:

"I AM NOT BEING OVERLY AGGRESSIVE I AM BEING ASSERTIVE AND YOU CANNOT STOP MEEEEEEE!!!!!!

"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
cute, roar....

lol

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
BTW: I'm done with this topic and argument. It keeps going round and round.

Thank you for the various posts, some I agreed with and some I did not agree with...



I agree, in the first page of posts this was a really strong topic for debate and personal opinion. However the past two pages of posts have been nothing but the same personal opinions and the same post just worded differently. The past two pages have just been a few people arguing their point across to try and get one another to understand or agree with them!

This thread has gotten utterly stupid IMO!! Which is a pitty as it could have been very good for debate, but people thought it would be better as a verbal slinging match trying to have the last word! Admittedly I have enjoyed reading peoples opinions whether real or just spiteful remarks to try and win an unwinnable argument. Like Husky some I agree with and some I do not, which is rather evident by this post, but also like husky I am finished with this post, it has become to silly!

Post last edited by Wikidkid101 on 03.17.2012, 02:44 PM.

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saviour2012
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quote:
Originally posted by Orphic Okapi
I do enjoy arguing, but sorry, this guy's nuts.



When you start calling people barbarians because they don't wear clothes, I give up on ever hoping to reach you.



got any points?

why i would not say that?

try to make me understand by giving facts

if you can not then do not attack me personally. alright.('')('')
[ i can understand the frustration as you got no points]


Dont be angry if you can not win over in an argument('')


__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

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Orphic Okapi
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Why should I provide facts? You are perfectly content making ridiculous claims with no factual basis.

quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
You are totally wrong here. Religions do work . They work better than anything.
Evidence?

quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
I think you are out of your mind. It is the porn industry and media that is constantly pushing men to its limit.
Evidence?

Way to follow your own advice. I see no point in arguing with someone so smug, intellectually lazy, and hypocritical.


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fenkashi
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Well, this is getting heated.

The point was, people are not barbaric because they live in a society where no clothes are a norm. It is just a different way of living; they are not bad people because they do not dress like you. Generally, it is offensive to judge people because their way of life is different than yours'.

And before you say something, I am not talking about murderers or rapists, I'm talking about judging a whole people based on the way they dress.


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I think I'm glad I chose to stay out of this. I already thought it was getting ridiculous before it even had its own thread!


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Thanks Husky, very interesting debate topic here… Whats interesting is the discussion started as a ‘simple’ equal rights question; and it has turned into a cultural, religious and even clothing(?) argument. How many of you have taken even a basic phycology course? Men and women are different in there make up.
I was raised in a home with a stay at home dad and my mother went to school and worked full time. In my eyes my dad was more of a man for choosing to stay home and raise my brother and me. My mom is not the ‘motherly type’ -anywho, dad taught me everything from making a gourmet meal, to changing the oil and doing a tune up on my car. I can do practically any household repair thanks to my dad. Most importantly he taught me independence to stand up for myself and to be a free thinker.
I think it’s nice when a man opens the door for me, but I don’t demand or expect it. I think that’s it is best for children to have a stay at home parent, but I realize that’s not always possible in today’s society. Women should get paid just as much as men in the work place as long as they are doing the same labor. I do not think an all mens University should be forced to allow women or that boy scouts should have girls in it. Nor do I think women should have to carry less weight in the military. My brother is kinda small for a guy, but he still has to carry a 80 lb rucksack. In most cases men are generally physically stronger than women. Who would you want to come save you from a burning building, a 150 lb woman or a 150 lb man?
Things will never be totally equal between the sexes or races for that matter; 1 because there are so many different definitions of equality and 2 it takes all different kinds of people to keep the world going and unfortunately some of those people will always think they are right and others are wrong no matter what. We have a pretty good example of one of those people right here…
Savior, I respect your views as the culture/religion you live in, but on the same token- I do not want any part of it in my life. I am proud (as a whole) to be an American woman, I can wear what I wish, go where I want with whomever I want and list goes on, because of the advances our country has made in the past 200 years. If our society does collapse (due to our own fault), then that’s our business.
Sorry for my higgledy piggledy thought processes, there is just sooo much going on in this topic, although it seems more like Savior is just trying to say his thinking is correct and everyone else is immoral over and over again…

Depressing read:
http://www.modernghana.com/blogs/266878/...bangladesh.html

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Wome...amp;FORM=IDFRIR
Some Americans have no idea how good they have it!


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03.17.2012, 05:57 PM Mokiepoet is offline   Profile for Mokiepoet Add Mokiepoet to your buddy list
husky51
The Old Guy




Registration Date: 03.17.08
Location: Southern California
Posts: 12782
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depressing reads, Mokie, depressing...


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03.17.2012, 06:59 PM husky51 is offline   Profile for husky51 Add husky51 to your buddy list Send an Email to husky51
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