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Roarkiller
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quote:
Originally posted by arren18
I think I'm glad I chose to stay out of this. I already thought it was getting ridiculous before it even had its own thread!

Er, we had this debate before actually, lol.

If we can bring anything useful out of this topic, we know now at least that, when in regards to treatment of women, the difference in geography and culture is too wide for any one person to grasp.

Being of the same religion as saviour, I can understand most of where he's getting his points; in fact, most of them are taught in religious class.

And herein lies his "fault", though no real fault of his own: using religion to argue logic.

The problem with modern day preaching is that materialism and westernisation has taken over such a large portion of our lives that anything to do with religion is outwardly and blatantly bashed as outdated or irrelevant.

We can take, for example, gambling. No major religion as far as I know condones it, yet using religion to stop gambling activities is laughable at best. Common sense and logic yields better results. And even these are no longer enough.

The sad fact is that a vast majority of people now no longer bother to try and differentiate right from wrong. An even sadder fact is that, for the few that do, seldom bother to even try and correct these wrongs.

In short, we have an increasingly apathetic culture worldwide.

And until this very basic wrong is made right, armchair debates like this has no use; nobody wins, everybody loses. Someone has to get up and actually take action before they can claim to be righteous.


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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

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saviour2012
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quote:
Originally posted by Mokiepoet
Thanks Husky, very interesting debate topic here… Whats interesting is the discussion started as a ‘simple’ equal rights question; and it has turned into a cultural, religious and even clothing(?) argument. How many of you have taken even a basic phycology course? Men and women are different in there make up.
I was raised in a home with a stay at home dad and my mother went to school and worked full time. In my eyes my dad was more of a man for choosing to stay home and raise my brother and me. My mom is not the ‘motherly type’ -anywho, dad taught me everything from making a gourmet meal, to changing the oil and doing a tune up on my car. I can do practically any household repair thanks to my dad. Most importantly he taught me independence to stand up for myself and to be a free thinker.
I think it’s nice when a man opens the door for me, but I don’t demand or expect it. I think that’s it is best for children to have a stay at home parent, but I realize that’s not always possible in today’s society. Women should get paid just as much as men in the work place as long as they are doing the same labor. I do not think an all mens University should be forced to allow women or that boy scouts should have girls in it. Nor do I think women should have to carry less weight in the military. My brother is kinda small for a guy, but he still has to carry a 80 lb rucksack. In most cases men are generally physically stronger than women. Who would you want to come save you from a burning building, a 150 lb woman or a 150 lb man?
Things will never be totally equal between the sexes or races for that matter; 1 because there are so many different definitions of equality and 2 it takes all different kinds of people to keep the world going and unfortunately some of those people will always think they are right and others are wrong no matter what. We have a pretty good example of one of those people right here…
Savior, I respect your views as the culture/religion you live in, but on the same token- I do not want any part of it in my life. I am proud (as a whole) to be an American woman, I can wear what I wish, go where I want with whomever I want and list goes on, because of the advances our country has made in the past 200 years. If our society does collapse (due to our own fault), then that’s our business.
Sorry for my higgledy piggledy thought processes, there is just sooo much going on in this topic, although it seems more like Savior is just trying to say his thinking is correct and everyone else is immoral over and over again…

Depressing read:
http://www.modernghana.com/blogs/266878/...bangladesh.html

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Wome...amp;FORM=IDFRIR
Some Americans have no idea how good they have it!




At last someone seems to make some sense. I think that is a wonderful thing that you have learned to stand up by yourself. I am saying the same , women should try to get their rights, freedom, and specially power first. Why is this clothing part is coming. It is not important at all to look sexy.

For you last paragraphs ,If you are doing something and having fun out of it, then you have the right to do it. And also if your society collapses because of it then that is your problem not mine. but that gives you no right to say that what you are doing is right. Because if that is right then why your society will collapse . And the advancement you are talking about is done by your ancestors whom i respect more than you. Just follow how they lived their life. If you can not then do not make a example of themselves because you are actually ruining what they have built by hard labor and enthusiasm. So please do not say that.

And for Women equality , we are talking about every women here. Not just about a certain region. So do not example it by my country. Your country has your kind of problem and my country has mine. Do not be racist.


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Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

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taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

Post last edited by saviour2012 on 03.18.2012, 05:54 AM.

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saviour2012
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quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller

The sad fact is that a vast majority of people now no longer bother to try and differentiate right from wrong. An even sadder fact is that, for the few that do, seldom bother to even try and correct these wrongs.

In short, we have an increasingly apathetic culture worldwide.




Yes. +500


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Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

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saviour2012
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Well, this is getting heated.

The point was, people are not barbaric because they live in a society where no clothes are a norm. It is just a different way of living; they are not bad people because they do not dress like you. Generally, it is offensive to judge people because their way of life is different than yours'.

And before you say something, I am not talking about murderers or rapists, I'm talking about judging a whole people based on the way they dress.



You don't got the point . I am not saying that if some culture is different than mine then that is wrong. I am saying that if that norm is unnatural then that is not right.i mean If that behavior has not come from the culture then that is not right.

On the other hand i think you do not understand what is barbaric-ism.
Who do you call barbaric?


__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

Post last edited by saviour2012 on 03.18.2012, 06:13 AM.

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saviour2012
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quote:
Originally posted by Orphic Okapi
Why should I provide facts? You are perfectly content making ridiculous claims with no factual basis.

quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
You are totally wrong here. Religions do work . They work better than anything.
Evidence?

quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
I think you are out of your mind. It is the porn industry and media that is constantly pushing men to its limit.
Evidence?

Way to follow your own advice. I see no point in arguing with someone so smug, intellectually lazy, and hypocritical.





Don't get angry


Now tell me from which religion you want the proof from. From Cristian,Jewish or Islam. I will give the evidence from the one you tell me, even you can ask for multiple. Mostly these are not written in webpages completely a little bit here a little bit there. So the best solution to give evidence is to give you book suggestion [ most of them can be found in internet , you can buy , or download pirated copy] i need to research for sometime to understand which the books are the best to make you understand .

but for these links can help a little bit [not in detail, without reading books you can not get detail]

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports...ocial-stability

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Effect..._Their_Converts

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/religionhealth.html

http://abna.ir/data.asp?lang=3&Id=263866

http://www.zenit.org/article-30412?l=english

http://debatewise.org/debates/1359-relig...ce-in-the-world

http://academicwritingtips.org/component...9-morality.html

http://psychcentral.com/news/2011/08/09/...odds/28465.html

http://www.innovationgame.com/general/religion.htm

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Introductio...iology/Religion

http://magazine.nd.edu/news/16754-how-re...mpacts-the-u-s/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics_of_religion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_religion

Now the links i have posted here contains some part picture not the whole. And they are not totally dependable too. so please do not take something from here if that is debated subject, to counter attack me. i think you will use your common sense.


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Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

Post last edited by saviour2012 on 03.18.2012, 11:11 AM.

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Nausicaa_Cat
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Oh man I feel too depressed by what I've read here to even write a reply right now. Plus I want to think carefully about what I intend to say, since it seems clear to me that there is a lot of confusion and deviation from the question at hand in this thread. But yeah, I will edit this post in a few hours with a post that will hopefully explain my original comments a little more without being dragged into what has become a pretty tiring circuitious argument.

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Mokiepoet
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Look I am just one person, I live a clean Christian life and not just on Sundays. But I am no where near being a fanactic. I live and let live. I don't like human judgment & I try my hardest not to be a hypocrite!
I admit that you have writen so darm much on this subject, that I haven't read every bit of it. If you are trying to say that women should not try and gain rights with thier good looks/body- then fine I agree with you there. I guess I wasn't sure where you stood on things as far as how womens fight to gain more indepence where you are? I hate to see oppression anywhere. I am NOT being rasist toward you & if thats the way I came across, then I am truely sorry for that.


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Kazegami
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quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
It is not important at all to look sexy.
Not to you, maybe. Personally I thoroughly enjoy looking sexy.


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quote:
Originally posted by Kazegami
quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
It is not important at all to look sexy.
Not to you, maybe. Personally I thoroughly enjoy looking sexy.



You got the point. You said you like or enjoy looking sexy. and i never said that women do not enjoy that. i said that is not important because we have more important tasks at hand . so we can keep looking sexy part aside. first do the important things. I think if women can get to those important positions in society then they will not even bother about this . because they will have more important things to do then.


__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

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Mokiepoet
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You got the point. You said you like or enjoy looking sexy. and i never said that women do not enjoy that. i said that is not important because we have more important tasks at hand . so we can keep looking sexy part aside. first do the important things. I think if women can get to those important positions in society then they will not even bother about this . because they will have more important things to do then.
[/QUOTE]

I understand your point here.


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Okay, I think the best way for me to explain what sexual equality for me is to show how I view the society in which I live. I live in England, a fairly progressive country in terms of womens rights, just to clarify.

As a young woman, I am almost constantly afraid when out at night on my own. Not even late at night, even when I'm beside main roads in well-lit areas I am afraid. I hold my keys in my hand, as a meager form of self-defense if I'm attacked, and if possible call a friend. My society tells me that if I go out at night, by myself, then I am bound to be sexually assaulted and it will be my fault for being out at such a time and by myself. I am also told that if I wear a short skirt and display a lot of skin, and I get raped - well then, I kind of asked for it didn't I? I am highly aware that rape, as a criminal charge, is hugely difficult to stick - that often it just involves an extremely traumatic experience for the victim which ends up with them being defamed as a liar and losing faith in the system which should protect them. I, as a woman, am taught from a young age that if I act a certain way, if I dress a certain way and if I walk when or where I shouldn't than I'll probably be assaulted - and damn, shouldn't I know better?

One of the original British suffragettes, when asked back in the early 1900s why she joined the cause, recalled being told when she was younger that she wasn't allowed to go out at night because men would treat her badly. Her response to this, boiled down to 'well, why aren't the men told to stay in then?'

A century later and we're in much the same situation. It disgusts me that I have to spend a life full of fear of attack in case my male counterparts are unable to control themselves.

Rapists are an extreme example, however, I'll admit. Well for me, when I go out in broad daylight, wearing completely 'respectable' clothing, I still feel uncomfortable walking past groups of young men. I'm still accosted, called out to and made to feel like a piece of meat. I have lost count of the number of times I have been beeped or honked at by passing cars/trucks - though what these drivers expect to come of their behaviour I have never been able to figure out.

Ah well, this is only a small number of loutish men who can't be taken as a representation of all men in general, you might say. Maybe you're right. Well then, let's take the average guy you'd find in a pub these days. I am sick to death of hearing 'lad' jokes, of being told to 'get back in the kitchen, love' or 'pipe down, dear'. I hear these kind of comments all the time, but for some reason because they are a 'joke' I'm meant to find it acceptable. If I made a racist 'joke' I'd be met with disgust, so why is it okay that a man can demean an essential part of my identity but I'm meant to find it funny? Even the nicest, most polite of guys will happily join in on the odd laugh at my genders expense.

It's the kind of casual, derogatory behaviour that girls meet all the time. It might seem like a tiny thing, but all those tiny things show a lack of respect that women still deal with. Decades of heroic feminism has managed to push back the barriers slightly, it has managed to earn us legal equality in many ways and women have forced their way into previously unyielding professions but equality still hasn't been achieved.

If people can still believe that a woman is a 'whore' because she dresses in a revealing way, still think behaving in a 'sexy' way displays a lack of self-respect then clearly equality is still a way off.

It angers me that regardless of how intelligent I am, of how hard-working or funny or witty, that I am still demeaned - that I am still treated as a sexual object.

From what I understand, maybe this perception is wrong, the Muslim faith has women cover their bodies to 'protect them' from the lustful gazes of men. To me that just seems illogical. If these men are unable to control themselves then they should cover their eyes. They should confront themselves as to why they are unable to view attractive women as equal, thoughtful beings. Self-improvement is a pretty vital concept of any religion, people are meant to cultivate higher thoughts and purer personalities. Why would women have to cover themselves up, instead of men learning to deal with their animalistic desires. There have been comments about how wearing few clothes is a signpoint of barbarity, but a man who is still so deeply subject to his base desires is far closer to a beast, in my opinion. Just to be clear, I understand these kind of principles aren't isolated to the Islamic faith alone, I just chose it as an example as it has been mentioned several times.

To summarise, yes, I want legal equality in terms of my rights and my job opportunities. But I want more than that. I want to recieve the same respect that a man would give any fellow man. I don't think that is so ridiculous. I want to feel safe. I want to wear clothes that I think look nice, regardless of how they might look to others, without being labelled as a slut. And you know what, I want to be as sexually promiscious as I damn well please because frankly it is no other individuals business but my own. When I get married, I expect my partner to pull his weight in the rearing of our children and household work, and to never expect me to check my own career ambitions. And if things don't work out and we make each other unhappy, then I don't want to be trapped in a depressing relationship for the rest of my life simply because some people believe I have a duty to sacrifice all my own hopes, dreams and happiness for the sake of others. As the child of divorced parents I wouldn't wish them back together for all the world, I want them to be happy and they couldn't do that when they were together. I understand that there are ingrained, biological roles that women are bound to play, but my entire being revolts against the idea of being told by any what I should do or wear, or who I should be.

As a woman I shouldn't have to fit myself around men's perceptions of me, of how men want me to behave, because that does not make us equals. In summary, in response to those comments made by (for example, saviour) what puts you in such an enlightened position as a man to tell me to shape my entire being around what you expect of a 'respectable' woman? Frankly, it just makes me contemptuous of anybody who could believe that. You look down on women who dress too 'sexy'? I look down on imbeciles who would judge a person on something so superficial.

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fenkashi
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quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Well, this is getting heated.

The point was, people are not barbaric because they live in a society where no clothes are a norm. It is just a different way of living; they are not bad people because they do not dress like you. Generally, it is offensive to judge people because their way of life is different than yours'.

And before you say something, I am not talking about murderers or rapists, I'm talking about judging a whole people based on the way they dress.



You don't got the point . I am not saying that if some culture is different than mine then that is wrong. I am saying that if that norm is unnatural then that is not right.i mean If that behavior has not come from the culture then that is not right.

On the other hand i think you do not understand what is barbaric-ism.
Who do you call barbaric?



Seriously? There is nothing unnatural about being naked. You were born naked. And not to be vulgar or anything, but you were conceived by naked people.

What culture?

Here, have the definition of barbaric: "Savagely cruel; exceedingly brutal" or "Primitive; unsophisticated.". I don't judge people's level of sophistication based on their dress.
quote:
You got the point. You said you like or enjoy looking sexy. and i never said that women do not enjoy that. i said that is not important because we have more important tasks at hand . so we can keep looking sexy part aside. first do the important things. I think if women can get to those important positions in society then they will not even bother about this . because they will have more important things to do then.

You say that like looking good is compensation for holding an equal position with men. This is ridiculous. The point is being sexy or not should have NOTHING to do with the amount of respect or position of a woman. Stripping a woman's sexual appeal is to strip her of her femininity... and this just says being a woman is not okay. That you have to unfeminine to be equal to men. That is not equality. That is compromise on the woman's part.

And even if this is done... don't forget the huge number of women who AREN'T a sex bomb. They do not have the equality we speak of either.

---

@NC *hugs* I generally don't bring up that aspect of the debate because I know someone will and I am so unbelievably frustrated by it that I just get angry and forget to make my arguments. So thanks for summing the unfairness of it all so nicely. The bit about it all being a joke is the absolute worst part. I could be genuinely upset over something a man has said... and I would not even be able to get him to understand why because it's all a JOKE.


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husky51
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Here, here!!! Bravo!, NC...


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Post last edited by husky51 on 03.18.2012, 02:10 PM.

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fenkashi
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Lol, sorry husky, ruined your timing xP


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s'all right, fen

I'm old school, I'm used to women going ahead of me...


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NC, you rock. :')


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NC, you are so awesome! I totally agree and I love you tons! Fantastic.


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Oh you guys :') I love you too!

I'm not saying anything special though, ask millions of other girls and they'll tell you that they feel exactly the same way. I know it's something that is hard for men to understand, simply because it isn't something they experience so it would naturally be difficult, but it really is the depressing reality for women even in developed western countries.

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Orphic Okapi
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Well, if Saviour isn't moved by that, the debate's officially pointless.

I'm glad you can keep a level head around this guy, NC. I just can't keep my emotions out of a debate like this. People who think like Saviour sicken me, and I can't hide it.


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Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 03.18.2012, 03:40 PM.

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Saddletank
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quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
Being of the same religion as saviour, I can understand most of where he's getting his points; in fact, most of them are taught in religious class.
And then saviour says "religion is good". If the Islamic faith creates attitudes like saviour's it is anything but good.

I've already stated how much evil has been done in the name of Christendom over the centuries and how still, today, people do evil acts in its name (e.g. Waco, Texas).

Sorry... off topic, but it seems a person's religion can easily be at the root of why they treat women unequally. As NC said, why should Islamic women cover themselves completely in public? Why don't the men have headwear that forces them to shield their eyes? Its an equal argument, and of course equally silly.


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