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saviour2012
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I actually do not understand Nausicaa_cat what do you want?

You want to eliminate the problem? or you want to make the problem more dense?

Now to be honest, i really liked your post, because you actually find out the main problem that girls are facing in the real world.

But you actually did not mention any ways

now try to understand my points, i am actually being totally realistic. you said you want that guys has to change his outlook to see a women.

i agree with you. but .... there is a big but there, the world does not work that way. You can not force a man to change his outlook can you? but i can because i am a man. Man if i say in general always have been stronger than women and it will always be that way so that to force a man to change his outlook only a man can do that.

But then comes the problem, because when i am forcing a man to change his outlook he says me those thing that i said. you will not believe me but actually most of the men has that kind of outlook. now many has argued with me here about that but if you stay with them you will see they almost does the same in different occasions.

So we have to move in a different way , direct approach dont seem a better way. What that second way can be?

it is providing a more respectful position or view about women to a man . that is our first priority. That is what we should do in the first place

Now the dress thing everyone is talking about is not a issue because that is a not important at all. Now the people who are behind the controling the media are actually pushing you to think like that.

You have to understand here. Please first see the list of the worlds most wealthiest people. Now see how many of them are women. The women you see there most of them got her wealth from their family and they are very intelligent to save that and even expand that.

Now all i am trying to say i want to see women in that position. I have the dream to see that in the top 100 wealthiest human atleast 50 of them are women.

And when you can reach in that position , you will see the change coming automatically. And the most important thing is then you not actually bother about your dress at all.


Now when you started talking about society and family i was very disappointed . i thought is it the same person who wrote the upper part.

Now if you feel like " life is short, live it up"

Then there is no point of arguing with you. Because you do not believe in a stable society. In a society we have to make sacrifices to live happily.

Now if you do not believe in god, do not believe in heaven or hell. then what do you find the meaning of your life. Now the more technology advances the more we are seeing that Islam is scientific in every sense. So why do you not believe in god? It is a question to everybody that why they think that abiding by the rules of religion will not solve the problem. It seems to me that you believe in science then why you do not believe in your religion which is scientific. [now you mentioned islam, many have done so too,i have tried a long time not to use Islam in my opinion, i have always tried to use your religion to say my opinion to you]

Now i have had enough of this talk already. Because no one is able to give me any good facts. All facts has been circling about right, freedom,old culture and many other things. All these things are heavily debated all over the world. so it will not take us anywhere.


Now i think i have given a model to you that can provide women empowerment , ensure their right and almost everything they want.
But at a expense of cutting the freedom of wearing anything, making sure of their duty at home and with children .

Now almost all of you seems to have better ideas than me. Now give me a model from which women will get heir rights And also it has to make the society stable, it has to solve the social problems. You can not deny it because in a society everything is interrelated.

And that has to be realistic. You can not make unnatural claims like if that may happen or that may happen. I am saying the society has to stay where it is now. you have to show us a step by step way that will make sure that women gets her rights and also have to make sure stability.

Can you?


__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

Post last edited by saviour2012 on 03.18.2012, 04:11 PM.

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Nausicaa_Cat
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quote:
Originally posted by saviour2012
i agree with you. but .... there is a big but there, the world does not work that way. You can not force a man to change his outlook can you? but i can because i am a man. Man if i say in general always have been stronger than women and it will always be that way so that to force a man to change his outlook only a man can do that.



I can't even.

Saviour, I will tell you something now that I mean from the depths of my very soul.

You do not understand women. You will probably never understand women. You will spend your life in a bubble of religious fanaticism and ignorance. I'm not sure there is anything I could say or do that would force you to realise that what you want for women is wrong. I think there is something about you that has good intentions, but you seem to believe the best thing to do for women is to kick them back a few centuries in terms of social progression in some vague attempt to create 'respect' for them.

The sad thing is, no woman who has any respect for herself, after hearing what you have to say on the topic, can have any respect for you.

I realise what I want in terms of equality is something that will probably take decades of feminist work to achieve but if it is achieved I believe strongly that it will be due to these women's work. Sisters be doin' it for themselves, and all that. It won't be due to your half-assed and half-baked theories, or any man like you.

I recommend you read some feminist literature. Such as 'The Women's Room' by Marilyn French. If you prefer something closer to home, I thought 'One Thousand Splendid Suns' by Khaled Hosseini, which is not overtly feminist, gave what appeared to be an accurate representation of Islamic women's life in the Middle East and the problems they face. You seem fond of facts and they should provide you with plenty. Beyond that I don't think there is anything I can do to help you.

From one woman to one man, you are officially relieved from the cause of gaining us sexual equality. I think you'd just get under our feet to be honest.

P.s. I don't know if it is because you aren't great with English, but the majority of your argument is nonsensical. The part about women's wealth in particular seemed to have little point that I could find.

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saviour2012
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Why are you getting angry

Give a model please


__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

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fenkashi
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...

Saviour, you have not given a model to reach equality. You have offered us an idea that would involve women basically changing who they are so men can respect them. And then you have said that once women have changed themselves and gotten that respect, they will not want to be woman-like at all... because the things that woman do (like dress nice) are a result of the lack of male respect and inequality in power.


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saviour2012
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quote:
Originally posted by Nausicaa_Cat
P.s. I don't know if it is because you aren't great with English, but the majority of your argument is nonsensical. The part about women's wealth in particular seemed to have little point that I could find.



Because you do not want to understand ,Why you are thinking about looking sexy?

And also you have not been in that position, when you get on that position then only you can understand what i am saying. It is the man who has dominated the earth for over 10000 years. So when you are not dominating the earth then why are you talking about something you do not know . When you will be in that position then you will understand how man did things. It is the man[ remember i said about business, wealth come from that angle] who made you think that looking sexy is good. Now if you say that as man has decided that particular fashion for you, you are okay with it. Then you are actually enslaved by man . And that is my point . I am saying that why women will not make her own ways her own fashion. you can only do that if you get on that position. So that should be your first priority.

And no matter how you insult me or say bad things about me it does not matter. I see that as a frustration as you got no point. I do not take that personally. And keep arguing . Because that will enable me to make you understand my points better.

N.B: going to bed . it is2.35 at night. I am really enjoying this. It is my holiday, and my classes at university has not started yet. so i can go on like this for some days more.


__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

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fenkashi
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Oh look. A man talking down to women in a thread about the equality of women.


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Nausicaa_Cat
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Oh god, I don't know whether to laugh or weep.

First of all - please, for the love of your God, let the whole being 'sexy' thing go. Being sexy is a tiny, minimal part of my argument. If you look back to my post speaking about the problems I feel I face as a woman, a very small portion of that is related to me intentionally being or dressing sexily. You yourself said that that whole part of the argument wasn't really necessary to the big picture of women's equality.

Secondly, when I professed a lack of understanding that was due to your fractured argument/poor English(?). You made leaps of logic without fully explaining yourself. It wasn't because my feeble woman brain, unused to dominating the world, couldn't comprehend your englightened theorising.

(That is sarcasm by the way. I don't trust you to interpret it as such, so I'll make it clear.)

I don't know if you're aware, but as far as women's fashion goes, a huge proportion of the fashion industry are women. Vivienne Westwood, Donna Karen, Coco Chanel, Donatella Versace, Dianne von Furstenberg, Vera Wang - ringing any bells? I think maybe you should research women's fashion, because your perception of it seems to be based on the whole fashion-is-the-product-of-evil-media-men theory, and that isn't quite accurate.

These vague 'men' don't decide fashion. Women wear what women want to wear, that's what it boils down to really. Ironically, it is you who is telling me what as a woman I should be wearing if I want to gain the respect of men. Funny how you and those evil men trying to enslave me have that in common, huh?

As for the history lesson, I am fully aware that for thousands of years women have been assigned an inferior role in society. Though it wasn't actually so pronounced until the industrialisation period hit, where men and women began to differentiate between who held jobs and who stayed at home (since until that point a great deal of work life centred around the home anyway). There have been female monarchs, you are aware too I hope? And women who 'dominated' and shaped the world? Isabella of Spain, for example. Cleopatra. Boudicca. Eleanor of Aquitaine. Joan of Arc.

Anyway, dragging myself back from going off on a historical tangent, I think you need to realise that the world is changing. Women are now doing their own share of dominating, controlling plenty of wealth and power. They are beginning to take the reins in so much as working their way up the career ladder and becoming economically independent. This is and has been achieved through (in my opinion) the feminist work of the 1850s onwards. I don't know quite what you think your plan (though I'm still confused as to what that is) for women would achieve.

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Mokiepoet
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Living in a small farming town, I don't really worry about feeling unsafe and since everyone knows everybody, I also don't worry about being mistreated or harassed. So I can't really relate to Nausicaa_Cat's issues, but I believe she did a bang up job of presenting her case, well not only her case but for most women in general. Bravo.


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Calforsale
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Wow i agree with everyone else, Naussica Cat you are writing some great posts!


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Roarkiller
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And at this point I feel the need to sidetrack a little and defend my religion from inaccuracy.

quote:
And then saviour says "religion is good". If the Islamic faith creates attitudes like saviour's it is anything but good.
If a religion creates an attitude that WANTS to create equality (even if the method is wrong, but that can be worked out), I fail to see how it is anything but good.

quote:
Sorry... off topic, but it seems a person's religion can easily be at the root of why they treat women unequally. As NC said, why should Islamic women cover themselves completely in public? Why don't the men have headwear that forces them to shield their eyes? Its an equal argument, and of course equally silly.
I've mentioned this is previous arguments before, but here it is again.

Women are not the only one who are required to cover up, as surprising as it may sound. It's just that the burqa, or headscarf, is just so prominent in a muslim woman's dressing that it creates the most attention.

Men ARE supposed to cover up, and almost as much as women themselves, actually. The views between teachings differ, but for women, they are to cover all but their face and hands; the extent of exposure of these two parts is what differs from teachings, and still dependant on the situation. For men, the very minimum is from the navel to the knee; note I said the minimum, because just covering that alone does not usually suffice.

Why is there this rule for dressing, you may ask? The answer isn't as clear as "to protect women"; that is only half the argument. The original reason is religious in nature. God "owns" these parts of your body (both men and women as outlined above), and god has commanded that these parts be covered.

quote:
From what I understand, maybe this perception is wrong, the Muslim faith has women cover their bodies to 'protect them' from the lustful gazes of men. To me that just seems illogical. If these men are unable to control themselves then they should cover their eyes. They should confront themselves as to why they are unable to view attractive women as equal, thoughtful beings.
This is the part that saviour has managed to misunderstand throughout this entire argument.

Yes, saviour, you are wrong. And here, we're going to have a little religious lesson.

It is not just the onus on women (and men) to cover themselves up. It is for both parties to be responsible; the women to cover up, the men to NOT LOOK. Also to be applied vice versa, not just one way.

So far your arguments have only been about the former, but not the latter. Remember that it is still the man's fault to be looking at a woman in such a way. You seem to be forgetting this part of the argument, both in manner of logic and in religion.

What everyone here has been trying to tell you, saviour, is that no matter how much a woman covers, a man will still try and find some way to see it in a lustful manner.

What everyone here has been trying to tell you, saviour, is that no matter how hard a woman works, a man will still see the woman is inferior.

Particularly for the second part, the problem is with man, not woman. There are no laws, legally or religious, that disallow a woman from working with equal footing as a man.

As an example you will clearly understand, remember Khadijah, the prophet's wife. Never was she prevented from working, nor looked down upon. She was, in fact, highly respected as a businesswoman.

From wikipedia:

"Women are allowed to work in Islam, subject to certain conditions, such as if a woman is in financial need and her employment does not cause her to neglect her role as a mother and wife.[42][43] It has been claimed that it is the responsibility of the Muslim community to organize work for women, so that she can do so in a Muslim cultural atmosphere, where her rights (as set out in the Qur'an) are respected.[43] Islamic law however, permits women to work in Islamic conditions.[43]

-The work should not require the man or the woman to violate Islamic law (e.g., serving alcohol), and be mindful of the woman's safety.
-If the work requires the woman to leave her home, she must maintain her 'modesty' just as with men.

Due to cultural and not religious beliefs, in some cases, when women have the right to work and are educated, women's job opportunities may in practice be unequal to those of men. In Egypt for example, women have limited opportunities to work in the private sector because women are still expected to put their role in the family first, which causes men to be seen as more reliable in the long term.[44]

An indicator of the attitude of the Qur'an to women in the workplace can be seen in the quotes regarding working women. These are the examples of two female shepherds Qur'an 28:23, and Khadijah (prophet Muhammad's wife), who was an eminent businesswoman. Khadijah is called up as a role model for females in the Qur'an."


There you go. Only three laws exists in our religion for women t work: to not neglect their duties as wife and mother, to not violate Islamic law, to act in a modest fashion.

And guess what: all three laws are reversely applicable to men as well.

The example with Eqypt is one reason, also seen everywhere else in the world regardless of religion, why women are held back. It was believed that women should be at home, taking care of the household.

This is, of course, only a custom. No where in any law does this custom exist.

The fact remains: it is the men who are holding back the women. The fault has never been entirely with the women. It was never an issue about clothing.

Ever.


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I am Roarkiller.
No one else is me.

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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

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husky51
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Well said, roar, well said. I, for one, didn't know about the Qur'an's requiring modesty in a man as well as a woman. thank you for that and your other remarks...

I probably should know more about the Qur'an because of my daughter and her family...

I'll see what I can do to rectify that...


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saviour2012
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I just realized what i did was wrong. I did not gave the example of my religion. And that was very stupid thing done by me. I just tried to explain those by giving facts.

I thought that if i gave examples of my religion then everyone will blame me for being racist[ because then the issue comparative religion that one religion is better than other will come][saddletank please do not start that here]

quote:
Originally posted by husky51
Well said, roar, well said. I, for one, didn't know about the Qur'an's requiring modesty in a man as well as a woman. thank you for that and your other remarks...



husky i think you are doing partiality here. You are only praising roarkiller here. that is not right because i have said about that at all of my post. I have always tried to say that modesty is for everyone... everyone.....everyone[ i just didn't mentioned that it is written in Qur'an] . And that is one of my key points. Are you doing that because you know roarkiller for a long time and you know me just this month.


__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

Post last edited by saviour2012 on 03.19.2012, 08:19 AM.

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saviour2012
Baron



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quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
And at this point I feel the need to sidetrack a little and defend my religion from inaccuracy.

If a religion creates an attitude that WANTS to create equality (even if the method is wrong, but that can be worked out), I fail to see how it is anything but good.

I've mentioned this is previous arguments before, but here it is again.

Women are not the only one who are required to cover up, as surprising as it may sound. It's just that the burqa, or headscarf, is just so prominent in a muslim woman's dressing that it creates the most attention.

Men ARE supposed to cover up, and almost as much as women themselves, actually. The views between teachings differ, but for women, they are to cover all but their face and hands; the extent of exposure of these two parts is what differs from teachings, and still dependant on the situation. For men, the very minimum is from the navel to the knee; note I said the minimum, because just covering that alone does not usually suffice.

Why is there this rule for dressing, you may ask? The answer isn't as clear as "to protect women"; that is only half the argument. The original reason is religious in nature. God "owns" these parts of your body (both men and women as outlined above), and god has commanded that these parts be covered.

This is the part that saviour has managed to misunderstand throughout this entire argument.

Yes, saviour, you are wrong. And here, we're going to have a little religious lesson.

It is not just the onus on women (and men) to cover themselves up. It is for both parties to be responsible; the women to cover up, the men to NOT LOOK. Also to be applied vice versa, not just one way.

So far your arguments have only been about the former, but not the latter. Remember that it is still the man's fault to be looking at a woman in such a way. You seem to be forgetting this part of the argument, both in manner of logic and in religion.

What everyone here has been trying to tell you, saviour, is that no matter how much a woman covers, a man will still try and find some way to see it in a lustful manner.

What everyone here has been trying to tell you, saviour, is that no matter how hard a woman works, a man will still see the woman is inferior.

Particularly for the second part, the problem is with man, not woman. There are no laws, legally or religious, that disallow a woman from working with equal footing as a man.

As an example you will clearly understand, remember Khadijah, the prophet's wife. Never was she prevented from working, nor looked down upon. She was, in fact, highly respected as a businesswoman.

From wikipedia:

"Women are allowed to work in Islam, subject to certain conditions, such as if a woman is in financial need and her employment does not cause her to neglect her role as a mother and wife.[42][43] It has been claimed that it is the responsibility of the Muslim community to organize work for women, so that she can do so in a Muslim cultural atmosphere, where her rights (as set out in the Qur'an) are respected.[43] Islamic law however, permits women to work in Islamic conditions.[43]

-The work should not require the man or the woman to violate Islamic law (e.g., serving alcohol), and be mindful of the woman's safety.
-If the work requires the woman to leave her home, she must maintain her 'modesty' just as with men.

Due to cultural and not religious beliefs, in some cases, when women have the right to work and are educated, women's job opportunities may in practice be unequal to those of men. In Egypt for example, women have limited opportunities to work in the private sector because women are still expected to put their role in the family first, which causes men to be seen as more reliable in the long term.[44]

An indicator of the attitude of the Qur'an to women in the workplace can be seen in the quotes regarding working women. These are the examples of two female shepherds Qur'an 28:23, and Khadijah (prophet Muhammad's wife), who was an eminent businesswoman. Khadijah is called up as a role model for females in the Qur'an."


There you go. Only three laws exists in our religion for women t work: to not neglect their duties as wife and mother, to not violate Islamic law, to act in a modest fashion.

And guess what: all three laws are reversely applicable to men as well.


The example with Eqypt is one reason, also seen everywhere else in the world regardless of religion, why women are held back. It was believed that women should be at home, taking care of the household.

This is, of course, only a custom. No where in any law does this custom exist.

The fact remains: it is the men who are holding back the women. The fault has never been entirely with the women. It was never an issue about clothing.

Ever.



I am trying to say the same the whole time. you are just pointing out those. i always said women need to cover and man must not look. But everyone here is trying to say even if women does not cover man will not look. And i always said that it is man's fault to look down a women like that. And i always said that it is man who holds down women for their prosperity. But nobody is actually talking about those at all.
All they are trying to say is women will do whatever they want, if only man changes then everything will be right. I am just saying in society that is not right at all.

N.B.: i officially declare that my English skill is very poor. I have tried to learn that from movies and literature. But that works only for basic communication. But as for creative writing that does not work. I learned that because almost everyone here is reflecting my points to me. So i ask if someone can teach me how to do that. However i will not stop arguing because all of us has not agreed with roarkiller. If everyone agrees with roarkiller[ husky did] then i will think my points has won.[ i have to say sorry for my poor english]
Nausicaa_cat and others do you agree with roarkiller.


__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

Post last edited by saviour2012 on 03.19.2012, 08:31 AM.

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Calforsale
Totoro




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Don't say sorry about you English Saviour, your not that bad! Your better than me and it is my native language!


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saviour2012
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i actually forgot to say something about the fact about getting angry.
the person i have took my example from is a very very respectable person to me. i am not even 10000billion to 1 to him. but his words describes my feelings better . so do not attack me from that angle please .



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Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

Post last edited by saviour2012 on 03.19.2012, 09:05 AM.

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Nausicaa_Cat
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Saviour, I believe your argument differs quite largely from Roars. I think to a degree it is possible we have been misunderstanding what it is you mean by your comments, but some things you have said are inherently wrong (the comments about a girl who dresses revealingly being practically a prostitute for example).

And Roar, I apologise for misunderstanding the rules concerning men and the covering of their bodies - I guess since it's only the women I see more/hear more about I assume that about covers it. As it isn't my native religion I was probably bound to be unable to hit the nail on the head, and I was questioning it based on secondary sources opposed to any innate knowledge of the Qur'ran - I hope what I wrote wasn't offensive or anything to you. I just know that a key thing people find hard to understand about the religion is the level to which women cover themselves when wearing a burqa, and the laws which surround it. What I have read on the topic has implied that it is related to warding off men's sexual appetites but this may be wrong. On reading what you said I thought to look up what the Qur'ran has to say on the matter, since it's never good to speak on something out of ignorance, but I must confess it's just confused me more.

quote:
Question: Does Islam require women to cover themselves?

Summary Answer: Yes. The reason is that a covering of cloth is supposed to keep the sexual appetites of passing men at bay when women travel outside the home. This can actually save a woman's life, since she is usually assumed to bear the responsibility of unlawful sexual encounters.


http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/007-veils.htm

I don't want to go off on a religious tangent, but I'd much rather understand properly about the subject then continue on with an ignorant opinion could you explain?

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husky51
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----------------------------------------------------------

saviour quote:
"husky i think you are doing partiality here. You are only praising roarkiller here. that is not right because i have said about that at all of my post. I have always tried to say that modesty is for everyone... everyone.....everyone[ i just didn't mentioned that it is written in Qur'an] . And that is one of my key points. Are you doing that because you know roarkiller for a long time and you know me just this month."

-------------------------------------------------------------------

No, saviour, that isn't the case at all. Your apparently constant repeating of the same thing over and over and many different aspects of the same thing really confused me as to what you were trying to say. And then you would put in something that I totally disagreed with and did ot seem to think that there was any other way to behave.

Basically, I got tired of reading your repetitious arguments and then got tired of the subject matter.

I then stated my viewpoint and left it at that.

The fact that I have known roarkiller for a number of years had nothing to do with anything. I have disagreed with roar and he with me a number of times. We know that we are different men from different cultures and that can cause clashes of opinion, but I think that we still respect each other despite our differences. As I respect your opinions. I don't agree with them, but they are yours to deal with.


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saviour2012
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quote:
Originally posted by Nausicaa_Cat
quote:
Question: Does Islam require women to cover themselves?

Summary Answer: Yes. The reason is that a covering of cloth is supposed to keep the sexual appetites of passing men at bay when women travel outside the home. This can actually save a woman's life, since she is usually assumed to bear the responsibility of unlawful sexual encounters.


http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/007-veils.htm

I don't want to go off on a religious tangent, but I'd much rather understand properly about the subject then continue on with an ignorant opinion could you explain?



I think you agree with me and roarkiller to the basic fact that both man and women should cover their body. hurray! [because you will see in the past posts that how i fought about the point that nudity is not a norm][ i realized you will agree after reading your post]

Now to the discussion about the women who are traveling outside. Now the example was taken from a culture that thinks that women actually stays at home [before the industrialization, and it is thought in many other countries which is not still industrialized like mine]. As both man and woman are strictly said by our religion to behave modestly. So if you dress revealingly then you are actually breaking the law, Allah has specifically said us not to cross the line.So when a women dresses revealingly the the men also looks at her. If she dressed how she was told by our religion then the men will not even look at her and do what they were doing.


quote:
This can actually save a woman's life, since she is usually assumed to bear the responsibility of unlawful sexual encounters.




So now let me come to the blaming part,That always it is a women to be blamed if anything is wrong. You will surprised to know how strongly it is seen in my religion. If someone blames a women without a proof then that person has to face very very very very very serious consequences.

Now let me tell you a story about my prophet[ i am thinking why i did not do it in the first place]

" Once prophet Muhammad was traveling. Then Ayesha Siddiqua [one of prophet muhammad's wife] discovered that one of her belongings is missing. So she took one of prophet Muhammad's companions with her to go back to the camping site[ for your your info she did not wanted to bother prophet Muhammad because to be a prophet there is a lot of responsibility and there was a lot of robbers at that time so if she chose a women to be her companion then who will be there to protect them]. But it took some more time than usual to find her belongings so she was a little bit late. When she came back it seemed nothing has changed. But the day after there was a rumor of Ayesha siddique's adultery . But as prophet was a powerful person it was not talked openly. But however after two days prophet Muhammad heard this rumor. He believed by his heart that Ayesha Siddique could not do that. But as he got no proof then he stopped to talk with her. Ayesha Siddque did not had a clue what happened wrong with the prophet . But after two days she also heard about the rumor. She was very sad thinking why prophet could not trust her. She did her household chores and after that she silently cried. After two weeks massage from allah came to Prophet Muhammad it comes with the news of ayesha's purity and also came with law. direct verse from Qur'an

"And those who accuse chaste women and then do not produce four witnesses - lash them with eighty lashes and do not accept from them testimony ever after. And those are the defiantly disobedient,"
Source: Surah= Nur ,Verse= 4. Source
[ for your info to make you understand how strong the rule was, 100 lashes for those who do adultery both men and women. for more info after 60-70 lashes there is a possibility of death]

After the massage from Allah. Ayesha did not even looked at Prophet in spite she said i knew My Allah will not leave me. [ for your info it was not a sign of
disobedience it was self confidence] And the largest smile was in prophet's face. After that the total blaming thing was gone from muslim culture. Because there is a full proof way to eliminate them.

So this blaming part did not come from islam inspite it came from Men and women's sicken mind. Those people's are the real problem.

I hope you undestood.


__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

Post last edited by saviour2012 on 03.19.2012, 11:45 AM.

03.19.2012, 11:31 AM saviour2012 is offline   Profile for saviour2012 Add saviour2012 to your buddy list Send an Email to saviour2012 Homepage of saviour2012
saviour2012
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quote:
Originally posted by husky51
----------------------------------------------------------

saviour quote:
"husky i think you are doing partiality here. You are only praising roarkiller here. that is not right because i have said about that at all of my post. I have always tried to say that modesty is for everyone... everyone.....everyone[ i just didn't mentioned that it is written in Qur'an] . And that is one of my key points. Are you doing that because you know roarkiller for a long time and you know me just this month."

-------------------------------------------------------------------

No, saviour, that isn't the case at all. Your apparently constant repeating of the same thing over and over and many different aspects of the same thing really confused me as to what you were trying to say. And then you would put in something that I totally disagreed with and did ot seem to think that there was any other way to behave.

Basically, I got tired of reading your repetitious arguments and then got tired of the subject matter.

I then stated my viewpoint and left it at that.

The fact that I have known roarkiller for a number of years had nothing to do with anything. I have disagreed with roar and he with me a number of times. We know that we are different men from different cultures and that can cause clashes of opinion, but I think that we still respect each other despite our differences. As I respect your opinions. I don't agree with them, but they are yours to deal with.



Thank you very much for explaining that to me. i have to learn about creative writing so my opinions do not get corny.


__________________
Watch everything but only take the good things from it

Ask, think and learn. Because the more we know the more we grow.

Watching the wrong to happen is the same as commiting the wrong.

If it looks like things are forcing you to be creative, Then be creative.

its a uniquely Miyazaki film, one only he could make and its uniqueness places it beyond being easily critiqued.[About Porco Rosso]
taken from a quote of Saddletank and Orphic Okapi

Post last edited by saviour2012 on 03.19.2012, 02:02 PM.

03.19.2012, 11:39 AM saviour2012 is offline   Profile for saviour2012 Add saviour2012 to your buddy list Send an Email to saviour2012 Homepage of saviour2012
Roarkiller
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I will ignore everything that came after NC's post, because of this link:

quote:
Originally posted by Nausicaa_Cat
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/007-veils.htm
Why? Because that is not a website about Islam. It is a website meant to DEROGATE Islam.

I've visited that site a few times. It's filled with so many half-truths and twisted lies that I'm shocked it even exists, and even more shocked that so many people are actually using it as reference (a simple search will find many sites linking back to that site, even official research).

What's even more shocking is that the website blatantly slams Islam, yet people believe that the website is by a muslim.

It's not.

Please do not ever use that website.

On a side note, I really can't feel offended when you're not a muslim yourself. You can't be guilty of something you don't know.

Something I wish more people believe in, I hate it when I get blamed for not knowing something (how the hell is that my fault in the first place?!)

quote:
Originally posted by saviour2102
If she dressed how she was told by our religion then the men will not even look at her and do what they were doing.


You're doing it again. This line contradicts your earlier claim that both parties are responsible, because here you are asserting that it is not the man's fault.

I cannot say anything about your English proficiency, but clearly you need to learn how to choose your words more carefully.

Remember, good communication is in how you speak, not what you speak in.


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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

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