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Umfrage: Girls being boyish?
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captain george
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Appearance means very little to me in terms of how being boyish/girlish annoys me. Most of the time, im wearing uniform, be it school or scouts, and most of what i see is boys/girls wearing the same clothes. Scouting is co-ed here with no difference in the uniform for boys or girls, and my school is the same.

What annoys me about boys being girlish is mostly the way most seem to abandon anything masculine about their personality. They often lose touch with their male friends because of this and then tend to have only female friends, making them less masculine still. Eventually, they barely resemble a man in the way that they act or speak. That annoys me.

When girls act boyish, they generally keep a certain amount of their femininity about them. They don't alienise their female friends and still act like a girl at least to a certain extent. They don't completely abandon the gender that they were at birth and that is the major difference between boys acting girlish and girls acting boyish.

My opinions are based on the guys/girls that i know who act like the opposite gender. i know quite alot of them, but i cant say that the way they act is universal for boys/girls who act like the opposite gender.

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hopexx5
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Taking note of your points.

I think their is a very thin line between what could be considered people unhappy with their current gender. And the more curious exploring ones.

I think you may of found more of the fairly unsatisfied ones or though i hope that does not sound offensive.


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Kazegami
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I find that sexist and offensive, personally.

"What annoys me about boys being girlish is mostly the way most seem to abandon anything masculine about their personality. They often lose touch with their male friends because of this and then tend to have only female friends, making them less masculine still. Eventually, they barely resemble a man in the way that they act or speak."

And if that happens to be exactly what they want? Sounds like your average transgender.

It's everyone's free choice how they act, dress, speak, and who they associate with. Gender should have no bearing on how 'acceptable' their choices are. As has already been discussed it's much harder for men to be feminine than vice versa, and it's far less accepted, as you've very nicely illustrated. Perhaps it's just a matter of perspective. These males you talk about might be no less rejecting of their gender than comparable females, but just appear so because they're less accepted.


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Orphic Okapi
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This might be a good time to make a distinction between sex and gender.

Sex is biological. Male, female, intersex. If you have certain parts, you are biologically-speaking a certain sex.

Gender is social. It's constructed by societies. What we consider masculine and feminine is far from universal. A lot of societies throughout history have had three genders. Currently most societies seem to favor a binary system. But what one society considers masculine can be very different from what another society considers masculine. Furthermore, some cultures favor masculine traits while others favor feminine.

So while my sex is unequivocally male, I would not identify as "masculine" in any way, because our society's definition of masculinity, like pretty much every society's, is limiting and arbitrary. If I have characteristics that some people consider masculine, cool. If not, fine.

So yeah, Captain George, what you're saying is pretty offensive, because no one should have to act or speak a certain way just because they have a penis.


And yeah, most of my friends are women.


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Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 01.16.2012, 09:54 PM.

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captain george
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quote:
Originally posted by Kazegami
I find that sexist and offensive, personally.

And if that happens to be exactly what they want? Sounds like your average transgender.

It's everyone's free choice how they act, dress, speak, and who they associate with. Gender should have no bearing on how 'acceptable' their choices are. As has already been discussed it's much harder for men to be feminine than vice versa, and it's far less accepted, as you've very nicely illustrated. Perhaps it's just a matter of perspective. These males you talk about might be no less rejecting of their gender than comparable females, but just appear so because they're less accepted.



i did warn in my first post in this thread that my opinions are probably sexist. i also said in my second post that they are based solely on the people i know who act more boyish/girlish than the average person and that that small pool of them (in comparison with the amount which i obviously do not know) probably didn't represent the overall attitude/lifestyle of the majority of those who acted more boyish/girlish than what would be considered 'normal'.

i dont understand why someone would want to completely abandon their gender (or sex, as Orphic has pointed out) of birth. That is what i think of it. i never meant to insinuate that any man who hangs around with more women than men was any less of a man than someone who took the 'macho' approach to life. From the experience i have with boys who like being girlish, they separate themselves from the company of men for fear of being judged, when actually what they end up doing is being judged because they separate themselves out of that fear. But that said, i know people who have decided to act more girlish and just abandoned whatever masculinty they have. Again, this may come around as sexist but i dont understand why they would want to do that.

i dont think there's an answer to any differences in opinion we may have on this issue. In my opinion, your being overly politicly correct and i assume that in your's, im being sexist. In my opinion, its human nature to be sexist, you have to be, pregnant women get that urge to paint and clean and make a nice room for their child when they take them into the world. Men feel the need to provide for their loved ones, to be the 'bread winner' of sorts. To me, that's natural for human beings, its how we'v evolved. Thats why i find it strange that one can abandon their natural sex, unless they genuinly are a girl trapped in a guys body or vice versa. Don't get me wrong, im all for equality in society between men and women, its this particular subject that makes me wonder how people make their choices as to what type of life they live as an adult, and its strange to me.

Again, my views may be overly traditional, i apologise if i have offended anyone with my opinion, but i stand by it.

Btw Orphic, i assume your comment was directed at me, not hope. And no, i dont believe in a rigid society such as 1950's America where a man and woman were expected to be married by the time they were 30 and anything else was 'wrong'. i just believe people should think twice before abandoning their gender's defining traits to 'be a rebel' or to 'seem more modern'. And yes, i realise that it isnt always a matter of choice.

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arren18
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quote:
Originally posted by captain george
i just believe people should think twice before abandoning their gender's defining traits to 'be a rebel' or to 'seem more modern'.


...or to be true to themselves.

Even though you made a point of referring to Orphic's definitions, you still tie together gender and sex by suggesting there is something inborn that can be "abandoned".

Is it really overly politically correct to accept people for being themselves when the overwhelming current of society is against them? And is it reasonable to base your opinion on all of those people on a few that you've met? You've even said that you realise they aren't representative of such a great number of people, and yet you're unwilling to think again about your stance on the matter.


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captain george
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quote:
Originally posted by arren18
quote:
Originally posted by captain george
i just believe people should think twice before abandoning their gender's defining traits to 'be a rebel' or to 'seem more modern'.


...or to be true to themselves.

Even though you made a point of referring to Orphic's definitions, you still tie together gender and sex by suggesting there is something inborn that can be "abandoned".

Is it really overly politically correct to accept people for being themselves when the overwhelming current of society is against them? And is it reasonable to base your opinion on all of those people on a few that you've met? You've even said that you realise they aren't representative of such a great number of people, and yet you're unwilling to think again about your stance on the matter.



Add in the next sentence of my quote to that and im saying the same thing as you for the majority of you'r comment. If it's genuinely the nature of a person to behave more like the opposite gender then that's their nature or nurture, they cant change that and i wouldn't expect them to. i can only base my opinions on those i know, but i doubt just as much that they would be the only ones to simply 'change' their attitude as much as i doubt there are those who to them it is simply their nature.

i have used the wrong term with 'overly politically correct'. It would take a long time for me to explain culture and what not, but where im from, the majority of those who act like girls/boys when they are of the opposite sex are considered to be either attention seekers or gay. Their nature isnt taken into account to the most part, and i cant say my mentality is any different than that until, like anyone else, i get to know the person. Anyway, unless sed person actually is gay, then they are labelled attention seekers, Ireland isnt exactly renowned for flair, and attention seekers are generally disliked (by the majority). i cant say im any different to that mentality, attention seekers strike me as selfish, and so my feelings towards guys who act overly girlish are not the nicest. i keep my judgements to myself about it, to the most part, and don't let me disliking a certain part of a persons behaviour be the only way i treat them, speak to them or act around them. i would like if everyone accepted what they were and lived the way that suits them best, and i cant say all the people i know who act like boys/girls do so out of nature, simply because i don't believe that all of them do.

i have said probably too much on this matter, its clear that my opinion on it is different to the opinion of the majority, if not all of the other posters on this topic. My opinion's on it apply to the people i know and do business with and they work just fine, i have no need to change it until i feel an actual change in the reality around me. When i do, then i will re-think my mindset towards it, but right now, i have no need to, the matter doesn't affect me.

Edit: Splelling <--- that ones intentional

Post last edited by captain george on 01.17.2012, 01:40 PM.

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Roarkiller
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Edited for spelling, yet spelled spelling wrong? XD

Is it not a paradox that we should accept a person's nature and choice but not their opinion and perspective?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: there's accepting a decision, and there's condoning a decision. One can go without the other.

For example, I accept the existence of non-straights and their choices, but it doesn't mean I condone them for religious and logical reasons. Different circumstances in life dictates that any one person can never fully understand the psyche of another, hence my acceptance. Which is as far as I personally would go with "facts".


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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.

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captain george
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quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
Edited for spelling, yet spelled spelling wrong? XD


i like to be a bit snakey and change the colouring of words every now and then when im using a forum to wind people up, have another look

im clearly not as open minded as ye seem to be, surroundings and experience have formed my opinions on this and again, it will take a change in the reality around me for my opinion to change on this.

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husky51
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Just leave yourself open to the possibility of change, cap. Don't let your self become like a statue, impervious to change. Even if you don't change your outlook, you will at least have kept yourself open for new ideas...

I hope this is understandable? My mind isn't 100% right now, apparently, lol


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hopexx5
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Not aiming this at any part of the conversation that comes to mind but.

Change is part of nature, Surely to not change and stay the same throughout is less natural than changing to suit the person in questions needs wants feelings.

And i would of thought that a male becoming feminine or vise versa with a female, falls into that category. Even if it does not seem logical (which people normally assume it should be)

I may of put that trough wrong, you cant get many things right at the grand ol age of 14.


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Post last edited by hopexx5 on 01.18.2012, 01:58 PM.

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AmtrakDesertWindrider
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Okay, so "boyish" does not necessarily mean lesbian. Just thought I'd add that.

After seeing upwards of 20 episodes of the ragingly popular MLP:FiM series (despite it beind dramatically outside my demographic at first glance) I've come to notice tomboyish characters (yeah, Dashie, I mean you) being "slash-paired" in fanfictions ad nauseum.

So I think sexual orientation is irrelevant to this discussion...

---/)


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foreignfilmfreak
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I'll read most of the posts after, it's just that me and my boyfriend often get into arguments over stuff like this, like boys who are feminine, and girls who enjoy being boyish.

His culture and mine seem pretty different in this respect. The word bisexual confuses him (I know that sexuality isn't what we're trying to discuss here, but in this matter, in his country they seem to go hand-in-hand). A tomboy in his country is what a lesbian is here. And a lesbian is someone who likes both there. o.O

If a girl there acts like a boy, dresses like a boy, then she is seen as a boy. Same with a man. According to him, gay men there dress as women to try and impress other guys. So it confuses him here why they don't really. I've tried telling him some musicians I like dress as women, or like boys, and he doesn't believe me if I say that that doesn't mean they're straight.

I used to dress boyish and I also acted boyish for a time. When I told him this, he was extremely surprised. That was how I found out tomboy has a different meaning over there. He then asked me "So, did you like women?" "No, what made you think that?" "Well, since you said you acted like a boy..".

My friends aren't the most feminine lot. Not only that, but my two best friends tend to kiss each other on the cheek. I've just taken it as it is. One has a boyfriend, the other is more reclusive. They don't wear skirts. They're both very tall. So they don't really get viewed much as "girls" by the guys at my school. Heck, I don't even classify as one to most of them. I'm just that strange creature. lol

I don't know exactly where to go with this. I went from being a tomboy to a lady. I don't find anything wrong or restricting with acting like a boy, although I DID attract some unwanted attention from females..

Edit: My boyfriend and his friends are all Catholics, but I don't think religion has anything to do with his views. They're all really accepting of anyone who is gay or a lesbian. Heck, his sister isn't allowed to have any guy friends over in her house unless they're gay. He also has nothing against those who dress or take on mannerisms of the other sex. It's not really going to bother him. But he doesn't think they do it for comfort either. D:

Post last edited by foreignfilmfreak on 01.27.2012, 10:22 AM.

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