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Miyrru
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Registration Date: 08.16.06
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Saikano does, i have to agree there.
More fanservice free:
Sola
Rozen maiden
Fate/stay night
last exile
The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya(to an extent, it doesnt really count and is really minimal)
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 01.05.2008, 12:20 PM |
   
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Theowne
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Registration Date: 02.11.07
Location: Toronto, Canada
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Fanservice is more widespread in anime than people think. This is because of the main audience for it. Until recently, (with shows like Honey and Clover popping up aimed at different audiences), most anime (other than mainstream shows like Doraemon and mainstream films (Ghibli)), were obscure and geared towards the so-called "otaku" crowd. The people in this subculture are associated with anime, "adult" dating sims, the "moe" trend, etc. And like it or not, most of the anime series in the past was aimed at them, which explains the fanservice. People usually get a shock when they hear that their favourite anime series was airing in Japan at 1 o'clock in the morning, because they thought it was a very popular prime-time show that all of Japan was watching. Many anime fans intentionally hide the fact that they watch anime because they will be shunned in society, as explained by one of those very people, over at Animesuki. And to be honest, looking at some of these fanservicey anime, and some of these "dating sims" , I can almost understand why.
Post last edited by Theowne on 01.05.2008, 12:51 PM.
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| 01.05.2008, 12:48 PM |
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Saddletank
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True, but I also think there is a great deal of traditional mainstream anime that has some FS in it, and in the west we notice it more than a Japanese audience would since they have different values. To us the odd distorted chest or glimpse of underwear is almost automatically a bad thing, I'm not convinced a Japanese audience would see it the same way.
I would have said the dating sims market was a seedy subculture of mainstream anime rather than anime series spin-offs from dating seems being aimed at the grubbier otaku-end market of a wider anime audience. Or if I can state it more clearly, there is a large family-facing anime market; the FS-infested part of this is a minority part.
Don't lets be drawn into discussing the adult-dating game and H markets I think these are quite different to the anime market and we should avoid discussing them here. Uh, in fact we should avoid discussing them, period.
The whole Lolicon thing in the west has slightly different connotations than in Japan. Yes, I freely admit adult fixation on minors is 100% a no-no everywhere in decent society but the Japanese certainly have a different take on that "no-no-ness" than we do in Europe and N America.
So loli-type characters in anime are not such an unusual theme. You don't get them in western animation outside of the worst sort of p**n, but in Japan they even appear in mainstream shows aimed at some young/teen audiences. I'm thinking things like "He is My Master" here.
Perhaps we could try to find a definition of fanservice, or rather is there one beyond "anything thats visually unnecessary, gratuitous and titillating." ?
And finally, um, I must have missed it in Saikano, I really can't recall much that was "visually unnecessary, gratuitous and titillating." Sure there was "visually titillating" content but I'd say it wasn't gratuitous and it was necessary to the plot, so defining FS is tricky and is probably a personal thing.
The brief and mostly veiled hints of nudity in the Full Moon transformation scenes I'd discount as I think Roar was mostly doing when he mentioned it. If you are going to count those I'd say there was fanservice in Evangelion - the whole dummy plug testing scene that required the three pilots to be unclothed was borderline FS yet integral to the plot.
Post last edited by Saddletank on 01.05.2008, 01:36 PM.
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| 01.05.2008, 01:31 PM |
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Miyrru
Graphic Designer
Registration Date: 08.16.06
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It is interesting that there is an 'outrage' for lack of a better term of fanservice, when, in live action films, the barrier to acceptableness is getting pushed back. I can think of a few films that i saw off the top of my head, that not only had nudity but practically porn scenes. And these aren't even rated R films (at least I am not too sure about the ratings) Only really explainable reason is the age of the characters. it is different if it is adults, as compared to 16 year old depictions
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| 01.05.2008, 01:39 PM |
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Saddletank
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That is a very good point. In the west nudity and undressing is usually that of adults whereas anime depicts minors who have the physical development of adults and its the underwear and nudity of minors that is seen.
Am I right in saying the age of consent in Japan is 15? Or is it 16?
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| 01.05.2008, 01:43 PM |
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Theowne
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quote:
True, but I also think there is a great deal of traditional mainstream anime that has some FS in it, and in the west we notice it more than a Japanese audience would since they have different values.
I think, rather, that shows you believe to be mainstream aren't quite as mainstream as you think. I'll refer back to the Japanese fellow who posted on Animesuki. According to him, the only true mainstream and fully acceptable anime for anyone not a child, are the two almost cultural icons, Doraemon and Sazae-san, as well as the studio Ghibli films. Again, it may be starting to change but that's his statement for now.
I disagree that Japan is okay with lolicon. I don't deny that it is more widespread there, disturbing as that may be, but there is also much criticism against it originating there and there has definitely been police/government action against it. Perhaps some degree of it is from influence from western society, though. However, after the so called "Otaku murders" involving Tsutomu Miyazaki, public perception has definitely changed even more.
There seems to be two ways to define fanservice. First, in the anime-culture negative way, which is some degree of gratuitous content for which the only purpose is to, er, "interest" the viewer, but has no relevance to the plot. The other way is just a general, literal definition, which is not used so much - which is basically, any material not relevant to the plot but designed to attract and keep viewers. The problem here is interpretation.
One topic of controversy on some message boards is Kiki's Delivery Service and the shots in there of , well, Kiki's "undergarments" as she lifts off, or is blown in the wind. Some people would say this is unnecessary, inappropriate, etc. Others would say that it just contributes to the childlike and innocent "feel". But, this sort of thing can be interpreted by anyone in any way, and you could say the same for all anime.
But, taking into consideration the audience that most (non-mainstream) anime is aiming for, then I tend to take the negative perspective most of the time.
Post last edited by Theowne on 01.05.2008, 01:48 PM.
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| 01.05.2008, 01:45 PM |
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Saddletank
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Yes, you're right, it's difficult ground this.
And sorry, don't be misled by my comments about lolicon themed anime. I did say it was 100% unacceptable everywhere, I merely wanted to highlight that in Japan there is (or until recently was) a different approach to it.
I also agree with you that in recent years and possibly due to influence from the west that 'different approach' is slowly vanishing (which is of course a good thing).
I happened by chance across the manga "Pita Ten" recently which is a story about 6th graders (11 year-olds). Even there the boys were sexually aware and the girls had developed chests. The characters could all have been 16 years old without any other changes. I found it a big surprise when 2 or 3 chapters in I found out their true ages.
Surely "mainstream" has to include a majority of the product doesn't it? How can only a tiny minority of anime TV series be "mainstream"?
Perhaps we're getting sidetracked.
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| 01.05.2008, 01:54 PM |
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Theowne
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quote:
Surely "mainstream" has to include a majority of the product doesn't it? How can only a tiny minority of anime TV series be "mainstream"?
The word mainstream does not refer to the quantity of something. It refers to the parts of the product which are part of the public awareness. For a crude comparison, there are tons of comic books out there, but how many people could name any characters beside Spider-man, Superman, etc? There are tons of anime out there, but only a few are known by mainstream Japanese. Anime, dating sims, figurines, these are all a profitable industry but that's because the subculture of otakus will shell out their cash for it, not because it is mainstream. Like I said, the fact that this Japanese anime fan has to hide his hobby should say something about the Japanese perception of most anime and anime fans.
The only anime that is really mainstream are the ones I posted above. I did not grow up in Japan, but this is what I have gathered from what Japanese anime fans and non-anime fans have told me and from my own experience. People seem to have the idea that Japan is a haven for their anime hobby, whereas they aren't "understood" in their home countries. It would probably a shock to realize they'd probably be better off where they were.
The thing that really did it for me was when the Japanese fellow told us that he was shocked at pictures of anime fans leaving anime conventions in the US, convention bags and DVDs in hand. In Japan, he stuffs all his purchases and bags into additional plain colored bags so no one will see them.
And so....this all relates back to interpreting what is fanservice and what isn't...always take into the audience a show is aimed at. Which is the difference between a Ghibli film, which is popular for everyone in the public, and something like "Love Hina" or "Kanon", which is mostly directed towards the "otakus" out there, like most anime.
Maybe a bit sidetracked, but that's what happens on internet forums. It wouldn't be the first time, probably not the last.
Post last edited by Theowne on 01.05.2008, 05:31 PM.
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| 01.05.2008, 02:20 PM |
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harmony-of-mar
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in mar there is fanservice but only in about 3 characters.
thats guardian alice, witch dorothy and queen diana.
for some reason they either wear only underwear or are constantly getting "close ups" in certain places or getting clothes ripped off.
its quite odd.
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| 01.05.2008, 09:43 PM |
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Saddletank
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quote:
Originally posted by harmony-of-mar its quite odd.
Not really, it's designed to appeal to boys and young men, particularly those without girlfriends. It sells more DVDs, its the entire reason Fanservice exists. 
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| 01.05.2008, 09:52 PM |
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Miyrru
Graphic Designer
Registration Date: 08.16.06
Location: Freezing cold Northern Ontario
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which, in its own right, is rather sad. if the only reason you can sell dvds is cause of fanservice, than you need some better writers/more intelligent people signing up series.
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The truth had to be seen. Anything else was a story, entertaining but more embroidered fib then crude, shapeless fact. ~Dave Eggers
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| 01.05.2008, 09:54 PM |
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Saddletank
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Tada! Yup! Sound of nail being hit on the head!
Get rid of the underwear shots and employ better writers. Job done.
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| 01.05.2008, 09:55 PM |
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Miyrru
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Now if only we could communicate said message to the writers...
good luck on our part, at least for the most part we have a group of good anime fans, who dont support this.
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The truth had to be seen. Anything else was a story, entertaining but more embroidered fib then crude, shapeless fact. ~Dave Eggers
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| 01.05.2008, 09:58 PM |
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Roarkiller
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Yeah, there's a lot of misunderstanding on the otaku culture in Japan.
*WARNING: ANALYTIC STUDY AHEAD*
Japan, in the end, is still a pretty conservative society with asian morals, so it's not really that surprising for me. But it's a culture shock in the west, where people are thought to express their feelings openly, and hence the otaku culture in the west is far more openly displayed compared to Japan, or other Asian countries for that matter. It's not very far from the truth, in fact, when the local contact in the movie "The Last Samurai" said that he translates other people's lies; such is the need to keep oneself from standing out, to be humble, and to not offend the other party.
There's also the same stigma that anime, apart from being associated with otakus, are often thought of as directed at children and youths. The younger generation, due to the education and whatnot, strive to be as adult-looking as possible, including mannerisms. This is often displayed in anime in the act of drinking coffee, an "adult drink", compared to tea, juice, and particularly milk.
So the stigma extends to the otaku culture as well. People who are too much into anime/manga/dating sim are seen as nerds and apart from society (and when people expect you to be a conformist, that's a bad thing), and hence Otakus often take great measure to hide their hobbies, except when they are with their fellow Otakus. Drop by Akihabara, or Akiba as otakus call it, and it'd be a serious culture shock for most people.
On sexual connotation, the legal age for having sex is actually 14, from what I've heard. It's much younger than foreigners are used to, hence their association with pedophilia. Still, it's not very strange to see copies of adult magazines/hentai manga sold alongside normal magazines, and in fact, adult material is very easily accessible- too easily accessible, in fact, that people have grown to turn a blind eye towards them, no matter what they think about it.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 01.06.2008, 01:12 AM |
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Saddletank
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Thanks Roar, interesting and useful as always. I was pretty sure the approach to minors and sex was different there but had no evidence other than anime itself where children as young as pre-teens are depicted in adult situations (living alone, dating, etc).
I was also reasonably sure that the shock of this was percieved more in the west than in its country of origin.
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| 01.06.2008, 04:51 AM |
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Maho_Fushida
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What an interesting thread, particularly about Japanese culture and the anime industry. I see we don't have many girls here either. Well fanservice doesn't bother me at all, I can see its almost completely aimed at males and seeing a few more bare male chests would be nice -  come on I'm being honest here - the female nudity thing just doesn't even come onto my radar really.
Now if I was a parent and had a young child it would be different and perhaps that is the issue.
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| 01.06.2008, 07:24 AM |
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Kazegami
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OHSHC is a bit fanservice-y I suppose, it's the sort of thing you were talking about Maho, many, many bare chests lol. But one of the features of OHSHC is that it pokes fun at itself and other anime cliches so I suppose that's part of the reason for it.
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| 01.06.2008, 08:03 AM |
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harmony-of-mar
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| 01.06.2008, 07:27 PM |
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Kazegami
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quote:
Originally posted by harmony-of-mar
any anime that is bishies abound, such as fruits basket or tsubasa is female fanserviced.
Hmm... what you're saying is that any anime under the 'harem' category is fanservice. I don't think that's quite accurate myself...
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| 01.06.2008, 07:40 PM |
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harmony-of-mar
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| 01.06.2008, 07:45 PM |
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