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Mush
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Yes, I didn't really like it so much. The visuals were pretty neat, but I felt like the plot really broke down about halfway through, and a lot of things simply were never explained properly or at all.
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 07.30.2007, 10:31 PM |
  
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Orphic Okapi
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I think the problem is that in Miyazaki's best work, his imagination elevates the story and brings it to a higher plane of greatness, but in Howl's Moving Castle, his imagination is just too big a burden for the story to handle, and about half way through it snaps under the weight.
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| 07.30.2007, 10:45 PM |
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Saddletank
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quote:
Originally posted by Orphic Okapi
the plot didn't really make any sense.
The plot makes perfect sense, you just have to pay a bit more attention. There is as much of a plot in HMC as there is in Spirited Away, more so probably, HMC being a very plot driven movie, like Kiki is, because it comes from literature and didn't appear from someone's mind via the visual imagination.
If you sit down and study HMC it pays you back, there's a good reason why everything is happening.
That said its one of my least favourite Ghiblis too but I can't put my finger on why. Maybe because too many people like it and I prefer a less well appreicated movie. Yep it may be something that silly that puts me off it.
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Post last edited by Saddletank on 07.31.2007, 04:24 AM.
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| 07.31.2007, 04:23 AM |
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Orphic Okapi
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I have no doubt that the plot makes sense if you watch it enough, but I don't want to invest hours of my life watching a movie I didn't really enjoy just to try to figure it out.
And what I meant by the plot "snapping," so to speak, is that it ceased to be remotely relevent. At the halfway point, I just sort of surrendered myself to the images and gave up trying to figure anything out.
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| 07.31.2007, 09:30 AM |
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Saddletank
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Which puts you at fault and not the movie. You admitted you gave up. What you're demonstrating to me is a simple lack of patience, and nothing that is the movie's fault. I saw nothing snap part way through - the plot seemed to be a smooth continuous series of events to me and I don't especially like the movie. It's okay but its near the bottom of my list of what Studio Ghibli has produced.
You don't need to invest hours of your life rewatching it ten or twenty times. Once more was enough for me to get it (I was simply confused the first time and hardly understood anything). But to enjoy any Ghibli movie you need to watch them at least twice, some of them more times. Ghibli's work is the kind of thing that repays people who do have time to invest hours in rewatching them.
What was it about the movie that "snapped"? Where did it go wrong? What didn't you understand? By talking about it you might find the interest to go back and watch it again - 90 minutes is hardly a life committment.
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Post last edited by Saddletank on 07.31.2007, 10:17 AM.
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| 07.31.2007, 10:14 AM |
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Orphic Okapi
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Why am I at fault if the movie is too hard to understand the first time you watch it? You shouldn't have to watch a film more than once just to figure out what's going on. It's not a lack of patience on my part; it's the film being overly demanding.
In every Ghibli film I've seen, besides this one, the plot makes perfect sense the first time I see it; on repeated viewings, I gain more insight into what the plot means, but never into what is actually happening. This movie made sense to me for about the first hour, but then Sophie gets summoned by the king; she meets Suliman instead; Suliman does some weird thing that makes Howl start turning into a demon; they escape; they move their house, though I've never understood how or where to; Howl continues trying to stop the war, which makes him turn gradually more and more demonic; Sophie has some weird dream thing; someone bombs Sophie's village; she tries to go save Howl because he's trying to save the hat shop; then she decides not to; then she decides to again . . . (or something); and then she finds some random doorway into the past; and it turns out Howl gave his heart to Calcifer; and then a bunch of random stuff happens at the end and . . . er, I probably missed a lot, but to me, none of what I just listed made much of any sense in the context of a story.
Maybe I'm thinking about it too hard, or not thinking hard enough, or both at the same time, but it just doesn't seem particularly coherent.
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| 07.31.2007, 03:04 PM |
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Tea Master Tall
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| 07.31.2007, 03:20 PM |
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J.L.Jones
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xD it rocks! especially the ending - Calcifer is Howl's heart, witch steals heart, jumping scarecrow is the prince and so on xD
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| 07.31.2007, 03:25 PM |
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Tea Master Tall
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quote:
Originally posted by J.L.Jones
xD it rocks! especially the ending - Calcifer is Howl's heart, witch steals heart, jumping scarecrow is the prince and so on xD
The ending was cool with the flying castle but....errrr how can i say this how can you think this movie is really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really awsome and great or could be one of the best of them, The plot is not so confusing, after you watch it a few times you can understand it more but this much imagination is simply to much.
 
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Post last edited by Tea Master Tall on 07.31.2007, 03:41 PM.
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| 07.31.2007, 03:39 PM |
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J.L.Jones
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ahhh but i prefer things far gone into the realm of fantasy. I watch anime and draw Manga to escape the real world, not to rejoin it as someone else!
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| 07.31.2007, 03:43 PM |
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Mush
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*Spoilers for Howl's Moving Castle* I suppose what I really mean is that the ending feels like deus ex machina, and not a resolution that really grows from the storyline. Meanwhile, crucial plot elements are buried as though unimportant; for example, the man reading the newspaper who comments that war is unavoidable. Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia's plot summary, which I feel represents what I'm talking about:
"Turnip Head, in a moment of bravery, uses his balancing pole to stop the castle from sliding off a cliff, although he is badly broken in the process. Sophie thanks him for saving their lives by giving him a kiss; Turnip Head then turns into Crown Prince Justin, who had been transformed by a spell that could only be broken by a kiss from his true love. However, when Howl wakes up, Sophie shows she is really in love with Howl, which breaks her own curse. Calcifer returns, saying he missed them, and decides to stay even though his contract with Howl was broken.
"Madame Suliman witnesses all this in her crystal ball back in Kingsbury; with Prince Justin rescued and Howl's heart restored, there is no reason to continue the war. She calls for an immediate cease-fire and the conflict ends. As the kingdom's aerial warships return home, Sophie, Howl, the Witch, Calcifer and Markl fly away in the newly rebuilt castle."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howl's_Moving_Castle_(film)
I mean, I did enjoy the film, and it did have some very strong points, especially the animation. I just think that the plot doesn't "flow" properly, the way it would in a well-constructed story.
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Post last edited by Mush on 08.09.2007, 10:20 PM.
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| 07.31.2007, 11:25 PM |
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Queeny
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i think miyazaki out does himself with every new film he releases, HMC is pure genius 
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| 08.01.2007, 12:04 AM |
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Orphic Okapi
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Mushka basically said what I was trying to say, only rather more lucidly. Thank you.
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| 08.01.2007, 12:09 AM |
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Farren
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i can see what your getting at i liked it, but i guese miyazaki wanted it that way a happy ending and uncertain plot
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| 08.01.2007, 12:17 AM |
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Orphic Okapi
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I think the part where the plot takes its turn for the worse is when Howl gets summoned by Madam Suliman.
First of all, the scene with Sophie and the Witch of the Waste climbing the steps is just plain weird, and sort of disturbing. Even more disturbing is the part where the Witch of the Waste sits in the chair, and all the lights turn on and she starts screaming. That was just plain creepy.
And then Sophie has her conversation with Madam Suliman, which does not shed any light on anything that had happened previously. Instead, we learn that the Witch of the Waste lost her heart like Howl, that Howl was Suliman's apprentice, and that the Witch of the Waste is a lot older than she looks. So what?
Then, of course, Howl shows up, and Suliman does her weird magic-thing, Howl gets surrounded by weird starmen-things and starts turning into a demon-thing (I still have no idea what's with him turning into a demon-thing sometimes, but other times he just turns into a big bird-thing), and Sophie helps him escape before he does so.
First of all, what was Suliman's purpose in luring Howl to the castle? So she could, er, reveal his true form to Sophie? Or was that just an afterthought, and her real purpose was to get him to fight like the other wizards? If so, then what was the point of her trying to turn Howl into a demon in the first place? Will that somehow help her recruit him? Does it even really matter?
Beyond this scene, I basically had absolutely no idea what was happening.
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| 08.04.2007, 10:39 AM |
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thatsmagic
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quote:
Originally posted by filter
this is my favourite movie of all time.
Likewise, the music is superbly written and the artwork is stunning. it's hard trying to collect merchendise over here.
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| 08.07.2007, 02:14 PM |
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Roarkiller
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@Orphic & Saddle: I think the actual problem is the difficulty in seeing what exactly is wrong with the movie.
Plot is a general idea of how the story goes. And in that sense a plot can't break; it's just an idea for the storyline to follow.
The storyline is at fault here, because that controls how a story is told. A plot can be perfect with a rubbish storyline. And here, as Mushka's examples show, is seriously lacking. A lot of important information aren't given, and a lot of holes are left gaping.
And there's the flow. This is directly related to the storyline, and personally, it's very rough and too rushed from halfway onwards, like a derailed bullet train on offroad conditions.
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quote:
Originally posted by fenkashi
Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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| 08.08.2007, 05:21 AM |
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Orphic Okapi
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quote:
Originally posted by Roarkiller
@Orphic & Saddle: I think the actual problem is the difficulty in seeing what exactly is wrong with the movie.
Plot is a general idea of how the story goes. And in that sense a plot can't break; it's just an idea for the storyline to follow.
I actually learned the exact opposite. I always though the storyline was the general idea; the plot was all of the details.
But either way, I think we're on the same wavelength. The plot/storyline doesn't flow very well, and it becomes a mess by the second half.
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| 08.09.2007, 09:32 PM |
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Saddletank
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quote:
"Turnip Head, in a moment of bravery, uses his balancing pole to stop the castle from sliding off a cliff, although he is badly broken in the process. Sophie thanks him for saving their lives by giving him a kiss; Turnip Head then turns into Crown Prince Justin, who had been transformed by a spell that could only be broken by a kiss from his true love. However, when Howl wakes up, Sophie shows she is really in love with Howl, which breaks her own curse. Calcifer returns, saying he missed them, and decides to stay even though his contract with Howl was broken."
Yes, its a corny ending and yes it tidies everything up so quickly and unexpectedly its a bit odd (Cat Returns anyone, even Whisper of the Heart for a neat and tidy and fairly rushed ending?) but I don't see anything wrong with turnip head having Sophie as his true love and Sophie having Howl as hers. A true love is someone you love purely and deeply and you love no other. Nowhere does it say that a true love cannot be unrequited.
I've seen endings like this in countless movies (and books) over the decades, yes it felt rushed but it didn't feel like especially poor writing to me.
And I'm still trying to identify this point part way through where people are saying the movie goes off the rails and still no-one seems to be able to identify it. If its that hard to pin down then I'm suggesting it doesn't exist and as I've been saying all along the story (or plot, I don't agree with the descriptions or linkage in the heirarchy of terms either) isn't broken.
quote:
Originally posted by Orphic Okapi
Why am I at fault if the movie is too hard to understand the first time you watch it?
I'm sorry if I suggested you were at fault, perhaps I was having a bad day. But lots of anime movies go over my head when I first watch them. Perfect Blue, Millenium Actress, even Spirited Away. Movie makers do this deliberately so that you feel compelled to come back and watch their work again, its both a storytelling technique and a marketing technique and has been around since the movie industry began to mature from an entertainment industry into a serious art form.
The complexity of HMC's story isn't an insult to the viewer, its Miyazaki saying, "here's something that can be enjoyed multiple times and each time you come back you'll see something more"
I wouldn't say the film was being overly demanding. I would say this is quite normal. Of course to the viewer who dislikes what he sees at the first viewing he's not likely to return, so perhaps thats the simple answer in this case.
quote:
Originally posted by Orphic Okapi In every Ghibli film I've seen, besides this one, the plot makes perfect sense the first time I see it; on repeated viewings, I gain more insight into what the plot means, but never into what is actually happening.
Without getting bogged down into whether we should be using the word 'plot', 'storyline' or some other term, I am usually missing something at the end of most films. Some anime series I will watch and apparently enjoy then do a review here only to be told that I didn't get it at all. According to some people it would seem I watched an entirely different anime. But that doesn't bother me - I enjoy anime on the level that it touches me. Sometimes I am happy to dig deeper into a convoluted story, other days I enjoy not asking questions and letting the thing flow over me.
The first time I watched Howl I hated it and sat there thinking "well what the heck was that all about?" But being a fan of Miyazaki I am prepared to go back, multiple times if necessary, and rewatch the thing because I know, being a Miyazaki movie, that there will be reasons to invest time in it. I think what I'm struggling to understand here is your refusal to go back and rewatch it when if you did you might find your enjoyment of it increased and it wouldn't be a wasted 90 minutes.
quote:
Originally posted by Orphic Okapi Sophie gets summoned by the king; she meets Suliman instead; Suliman does some weird thing that makes Howl start turning into a demon; they escape; they move their house, though I've never understood how or where to; Howl continues trying to stop the war, which makes him turn gradually more and more demonic; Sophie has some weird dream thing; someone bombs Sophie's village; she tries to go save Howl because he's trying to save the hat shop; then she decides not to; then she decides to again . . . (or something); and then she finds some random doorway into the past; and it turns out Howl gave his heart to Calcifer; and then a bunch of random stuff happens at the end and . . . er, I probably missed a lot, but to me, none of what I just listed made much of any sense in the context of a story.
Maybe I'm thinking about it too hard, or not thinking hard enough, or both at the same time, but it just doesn't seem particularly coherent.
It's funny but given the fantastical context and that this is a love story (in love there's frequently no rhyme or reason anyway) all that makes perfect sense to me.
"Sophie gets summoned by the king" - No, Howl gets summoned by Suleiman because all the wizards are ordered to help in the war. Suleiman being the King's executive minister can issue summonses in his name. Howl being immature refuses to go, Sophie goes instead.
"Suliman does some weird thing that makes Howl start turning into a demon" - Its not a weird thing: she casts magic on Sophie and Howl defends her with magic. Howl intervened in magical disguise because he loves Sophie.
"They escape; they move their house, though I've never understood how or where to" - Howl moves it by magic (this is the "Moving" of the movies title - not the fact that the castle can walk - or at the end fly - its magical movement), they move it to avoid Suleiman's servants finding it, they don't move it physically at all, Howl moves the portals by which the castle connects to the world. One portal becomes the hat shop, another becomes his garden retreat (apparently replacing Porthaven and Kingsbury both of which become 'dead' portals and are seen being broken into by Suleiman's soldiers). Howl also magically transforms the interior of the Castle to seem more like the hat shop because he loves Sophie and wants her to feel more at home.
"Howl continues trying to stop the war, which makes him turn gradually more and more demonic" - yep, Howl is now in love for the first proper time in his life and the war is threatening Sophie so he combats it.
"Sophie has some weird dream thing" - she does, she's in love with Howl who is hurting himself in order to protect her, this in turn hurts her and her mind takes her into this painful dream. Why is this a problem?
"someone bombs Sophie's village" - its a war, these things happen.
"she tries to go save Howl because he's trying to save the hat shop; then she decides not to; then she decides to again . . . (or something)" - she tries to do what she can, its at this point that she and Howl both discover that the other loves them back. The agony of their situation, the bombing and the confusion are a dramatic device. Emotionally the scene in the burning courtyard of the hat shop is the high point of the story.
"she finds some random doorway into the past" - Its not some random doorway, its the Castle's magic doorway/portal. Without the magic coloured rotating lock mechanism working, entering it allows the mind of the traveller to be taken where they wish or need to be taken. Sophie is struggling to help and understand Howl so the portal takes her to a place where she can do that - to his past.
"and it turns out Howl gave his heart to Calcifer" - yep, no problem there.
So if you go back and enjoy repeated viewings it does all become clear and nothing is broken.
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Post last edited by Saddletank on 08.10.2007, 03:27 AM.
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| 08.10.2007, 02:44 AM |
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Orphic Okapi
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Thanks for trying to explain all of that; I know I'm probably being pig-headed in my assessment of the film (maybe that's why I like Porco Rosso so much.) I actually have watched it more than once (about three times) and the plot still made no sense to me, but I think I'm beginning to grasp it now that you've explained some things. Maybe I'm just too stupid to understand the movie? 
I do have a couple of comments to add.
quote:
But lots of anime movies go over my head when I first watch them. Perfect Blue, Millenium Actress, even Spirited Away. Movie makers do this deliberately so that you feel compelled to come back and watch their work again . . .
The problem is, Howl's Moving Castle didn't compel me. The only thing that compelled me to watch it again was that it was a Miyazaki movie, so I thought that maybe rewatching it would make it all click and I would suddenly start liking it. I think it does get more enjoyable the more times you watch it, but I still don't really understand much of what is happening, or like it nearly as much as Miyazaki's other works. (Thanks to you, I have more of a general idea of what happens, though. Maybe if I watch now I'll start liking it.)
quote:
The first time I watched Howl I hated it and sat there thinking "well what the heck was that all about?" But being a fan of Miyazaki I am prepared to go back, multiple times if necessary, and rewatch the thing because I know, being a Miyazaki movie, that there will be reasons to invest time in it.
I think that's the main problem with the movie. The only reason people like you and me will invest more time in it is because it's a Miyazaki movie. If any other filmmaker had made Howl's Moving Castle, I don't think I would've watched it more than once. That's a problem.
quote:
"Suliman does some weird thing that makes Howl start turning into a demon" - Its not a weird thing: she casts magic on Sophie and Howl defends her with magic. Howl intervened in magical disguise because he loves Sophie.
Er . . . Where did you get that from? I mean, it sounds perfectly plausible, but I doubt I would've figured that out even if I watched it a thousand times. I always thought Suliman was doing something to Howl, not Sophie--since, you know, he was the one freaking out and turning into a demon and everything. And what's with the weird star people that you see at the end dancing around Howl? I've never understood that, either.
quote:
"Sophie has some weird dream thing" - she does, she's in love with Howl who is hurting himself in order to protect her, this in turn hurts her and her mind takes her into this painful dream. Why is this a problem?
It wasn't a problem so much that it didn't make much sense to me in the context of the story. But the way you explain it, it makes more sense.
quote:
"she tries to go save Howl because he's trying to save the hat shop; then she decides not to; then she decides to again . . . (or something)" - she tries to do what she can, its at this point that she and Howl both discover that the other loves them back. The agony of their situation, the bombing and the confusion are a dramatic device. Emotionally the scene in the burning courtyard of the hat shop is the high point of the story.
This explains the emotional aspects of the scene well, but what is actually happening? Especially later on, when Sophie takes Calcifer out of the castle, it collapses, then she decides to go inside the castle again. That was the part that really confused me.
quote:
"she finds some random doorway into the past" - Its not some random doorway, its the Castle's magic doorway/portal. Without the magic coloured rotating lock mechanism working, entering it allows the mind of the traveller to be taken where they wish or need to be taken. Sophie is struggling to help and understand Howl so the portal takes her to a place where she can do that - to his past.
That's all well and good, but where in the film does it actually explain this? I knew it was the Castle's magic door, but I had no idea that it took people wherever they wanted to go. Though it does make a great deal more sense that way.
quote:
"and it turns out Howl gave his heart to Calcifer" - yep, no problem there.
Yes, but what does it mean if you don't have a heart? The idea of having your heart removed recurs throughout the movie, but it's never really explained at all. Clearly it doesn't make you emotionless, as both Howl and the Witch of the Waste display emotion. So what does it actually do to you? And what is with the Witch of the Waste trying to get Howl's heart? I assumed that the heart was supposed to symbolize his love, since she loved him at some point--but then how is Howl able to love Sophie? I don't know, it just seems awfully confusing to me.
Anyway, despite my thousand new questions, you actually did help me understand the story quite a bit more than I did before. The plot still seems a bit messy to me, but maybe it's just not my kind of movie.
Thanks.
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Post last edited by Orphic Okapi on 08.10.2007, 09:03 AM.
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| 08.10.2007, 09:01 AM |
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