Posted by Roarkiller on 03.18.2012, 11:14 PM:
And at this point I feel the need to sidetrack a little and defend my religion from inaccuracy.
quote: And then saviour says "religion is good". If the Islamic faith creates attitudes like saviour's it is anything but good.
If a religion creates an attitude that WANTS to create equality (even if the method is wrong, but that can be worked out), I fail to see how it is anything but good.
quote: Sorry... off topic, but it seems a person's religion can easily be at the root of why they treat women unequally. As NC said, why should Islamic women cover themselves completely in public? Why don't the men have headwear that forces them to shield their eyes? Its an equal argument, and of course equally silly.
I've mentioned this is previous arguments before, but here it is again.
Women are not the only one who are required to cover up, as surprising as it may sound. It's just that the burqa, or headscarf, is just so prominent in a muslim woman's dressing that it creates the most attention.
Men ARE supposed to cover up, and almost as much as women themselves, actually. The views between teachings differ, but for women, they are to cover all but their face and hands; the extent of exposure of these two parts is what differs from teachings, and still dependant on the situation. For men, the very minimum is from the navel to the knee; note I said the minimum, because just covering that alone does not usually suffice.
Why is there this rule for dressing, you may ask? The answer isn't as clear as "to protect women"; that is only half the argument. The original reason is religious in nature. God "owns" these parts of your body (both men and women as outlined above), and god has commanded that these parts be covered.
quote: From what I understand, maybe this perception is wrong, the Muslim faith has women cover their bodies to 'protect them' from the lustful gazes of men. To me that just seems illogical. If these men are unable to control themselves then they should cover their eyes. They should confront themselves as to why they are unable to view attractive women as equal, thoughtful beings.
This is the part that saviour has managed to misunderstand throughout this entire argument.
Yes, saviour, you are wrong. And here, we're going to have a little religious lesson.
It is not just the onus on women (and men) to cover themselves up. It is for both parties to be responsible; the women to cover up, the men to NOT LOOK. Also to be applied vice versa, not just one way.
So far your arguments have only been about the former, but not the latter. Remember that it is still the man's fault to be looking at a woman in such a way. You seem to be forgetting this part of the argument, both in manner of logic and in religion.
What everyone here has been trying to tell you, saviour, is that no matter how much a woman covers, a man will still try and find some way to see it in a lustful manner.
What everyone here has been trying to tell you, saviour, is that no matter how hard a woman works, a man will still see the woman is inferior.
Particularly for the second part, the problem is with man, not woman. There are no laws, legally or religious, that disallow a woman from working with equal footing as a man.
As an example you will clearly understand, remember Khadijah, the prophet's wife. Never was she prevented from working, nor looked down upon. She was, in fact, highly respected as a businesswoman.
From wikipedia:
"Women are allowed to work in Islam, subject to certain conditions, such as if a woman is in financial need and her employment does not cause her to neglect her role as a mother and wife.[42][43] It has been claimed that it is the responsibility of the Muslim community to organize work for women, so that she can do so in a Muslim cultural atmosphere, where her rights (as set out in the Qur'an) are respected.[43] Islamic law however, permits women to work in Islamic conditions.[43]
-The work should not require the man or the woman to violate Islamic law (e.g., serving alcohol), and be mindful of the woman's safety.
-If the work requires the woman to leave her home, she must maintain her 'modesty' just as with men.
Due to cultural and not religious beliefs, in some cases, when women have the right to work and are educated, women's job opportunities may in practice be unequal to those of men. In Egypt for example, women have limited opportunities to work in the private sector because women are still expected to put their role in the family first, which causes men to be seen as more reliable in the long term.[44]
An indicator of the attitude of the Qur'an to women in the workplace can be seen in the quotes regarding working women. These are the examples of two female shepherds Qur'an 28:23, and Khadijah (prophet Muhammad's wife), who was an eminent businesswoman. Khadijah is called up as a role model for females in the Qur'an."
There you go. Only three laws exists in our religion for women t work: to not neglect their duties as wife and mother, to not violate Islamic law, to act in a modest fashion.
And guess what: all three laws are reversely applicable to men as well.
The example with Eqypt is one reason, also seen everywhere else in the world regardless of religion, why women are held back. It was believed that women should be at home, taking care of the household.
This is, of course, only a custom. No where in any law does this custom exist.
The fact remains: it is the men who are holding back the women. The fault has never been entirely with the women. It was never an issue about clothing.
Ever.
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quote: Originally posted by fenkashi Screw your opinions, they are not relevant ^^.
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